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governance: Find Hangout-On-Air alternative. #731

Closed mikeal closed 8 years ago

mikeal commented 9 years ago

Hangout-on-air has a 10 person limit and we've finally hit it with the Tracing Working Group. The TC calls are now right at the limit as well so we need to find an alternative.

Requirements

mattapperson commented 9 years ago

spreecast.com

Fishrock123 commented 9 years ago

How will livestreams work? Do we need more than 10 people for these? Hmm, guess we do.

mikeal commented 9 years ago

How many people depend on the live stream and wouldn't be alright with just watching/listening to the recording after?

tjstebbing commented 9 years ago

Combine whichever solution makes sense with a cheap twitch.tv or similar sub for live streaming, you probably don't need one tool to do everything :)

Ie: mumble +twitch would give unlimited users voice plus a desktop capture with all voices streamed live and recorded for later

mikeal commented 9 years ago

Uberconference has no limit on people and can do an mp3 recording. The quality is quite nice as well and it even has a proper phone dialin but it doesn't do a live feed for people listening in. https://www.uberconference.com/features

necccc commented 9 years ago

I might can help you to, get an enterprise level Ustream account, if that helps

sockdrawermoney commented 9 years ago

Potentially, you could use the beta version of Talky and just screencap it as a gapstop on recording.

(Recording will be coming this year, but is not under development yet.)

mscdex commented 9 years ago

I don't know if the live streaming is as useful for the working groups, but for the main io.js TC meetings, I think live streaming is nice because others can chime in on IRC while the meeting is happening which can be useful.

rvagg commented 9 years ago

Hangouts has a 15 person limit when using it from an apps account, we sometimes have > 10 for nodesource hangouts. For larger hangouts for now we could just schedule them from apps accounts and copy the video over to the io.js youtube account afterwards (which I still need to do for a bunch of TC meetings).

blakelapierre commented 9 years ago

How many participants are you looking to support?

mikeal commented 9 years ago

@rvagg I don't think it's an apps issue, this limit is specific to hangouts-on-air :(

eruizdechavez commented 9 years ago

I've used join.me (Pro account, 1 paid user) and I am really pleased with it. It does not publish directly to youtube but it does record the screen sharing session. They support chat, internet audio and dial in numbers on several countries. There is no video (webcam) sharing.

https://www.join.me/pricing

gustavohenke commented 9 years ago

Some teamspeak server, maybe? There's so many public servers out there, and you have a nice control via permissions. Recording and chatting is available, too.

Then you'll just need to combine some other video streaming tool, when needed.

GlenTiki commented 9 years ago

+1 @pomke. We could create a mumble server and let everyone join for "livestreams", and lock it down, so only certain members can talk. https://commandchannel.com/Tutorials/LockDown/

We could also voice capture and stream to twitch.tv as it seems like all the hip kids do that these days. Does twitch let you save and export your recordings afterwards? Because we could export them to youtube too.

An added benefit of having an iojs twitch account is that the maintainers can set up livestreams at conferences, etc, that are io related. Everybody seems to be using twitch for stuff like that, these days.

eruizdechavez commented 9 years ago

There is something I'd like to add. Do you want a simple all-in-one that could require a "premium" subscription but have nothing to worry about OR do you want free/oss alternative(s) that may accomplish the task but require certain level of juggling to coordinate/maintain?

The core requirement AFAIK is a platform/tool that will enable participants to talk/interact in real time, for free. Skype, allows you up to 25 participants on a single group call; Mumble seems also a very good option too but it requires a dedicated server and someone to configure/maintain it.

Tools like Gitter, Slack or HipChat for the persistent chat look like the perfect solution.

Recording/broadcasting could be achieved, with Twitch, SHOUTCast, SoundCloud, or even with the same Hangouts-On-Air, in all cases, it would be good to have 1 person acting as a listener-broadcaster and maybe a second one as a "backup" line if the first one has issues.

ghost commented 9 years ago

You could use Hangouts on Air with multiple Hangouts and one person screen capturing one into the other.

snostorm commented 9 years ago

Keep in mind with some of the "paid" or "premium" options listed above that we could possibly reach out to the company for free access to the service as a non-profit, open-source project. (Assuming the technology offered seemed like a great fit for our open governance needs.)

rvagg commented 9 years ago

Perhaps the easiest fix for now is to see if @domenic can reach out to someone internally to see if we can get io.js hooked up with a free Google Apps account so we can get the bump to 15, plus we might find other handy things in there like @iojs.org email address management (not sure what for tho!), calendaring, and ...

Fishrock123 commented 9 years ago

@domenic any chance of that?

Fishrock123 commented 9 years ago

So GoToMeeting's quality is abysmal.

Maybe something like TeamSpeak or Vent / etc would work for meetings? They are specially designed for audio, and I'm sure one could record the audio from it reasonably enough. (Supports more than enough people.)

(Requires dedicated hosting, but I think we'd have access to that now.)

mikeal commented 9 years ago

While GoToMeeting's quality is questionable I've talked to people who say the quality is still better than alternatives like UberConference :(

Haven't tried TeamSpeak or Vent.

I'm -1 on trying to use a self-hosted service. My experience with these systems in the past has been that they are dramatically lacking in quality compared to the services available.

@Fishrock123 why don't we test out UberConference ourselves and see if it's any good.

Fishrock123 commented 9 years ago

Sure. TS isn't designed for it, so again, audio recording would be something we'd have to set up, but it is great at the muli-person-audio-chat part.

rvagg commented 9 years ago

/cc @rosskukulinski who has a possible alternative

mikeal commented 9 years ago

We just tested UberConference for a while and it was quite pleasant.

mikeal commented 9 years ago

I'm trying to get us a free trial of the Business account for UberConference. There's some super useful features in it and I think I might be able to automate the publishing of the audio file to soundcloud with their new API.

rlidwka commented 9 years ago

From my experience (well, technical talks and EVE online blobs are kinda the same thing, right?), if you have 10-15 people, skype works just fine. If there is a larger group like 30-300 people, it's mumble or teamspeak.

Audio recording is easy to set up with system tools (I think ALSA or Pulseaudio can do it out of the box), no need to look for services that explicitly support that.

mikeal commented 9 years ago

My experience with Skype is that anything over 5 people gets pretty bad. We used to try and use mumble and it sounded great when it worked but was really unreliable and would fail unexpectedly quite often.

There's a little bit of adjustment to all of these tools. When we first started using Hangouts we'd talk over each other a lot and had all kinds of little timing problems. From what I can tell, UberConference has a big of a delay we'll need to get used to when handing off from one person to another but is designed in such a way that we don't see dramatically reduced performance for each additional person we add to the call.

rlidwka commented 9 years ago

I'm trying to get us a free trial of the Business account for UberConference.

Is it a SaaS? I'm not sure that's a good idea. Two reasons:

  1. It is too hard to use.

    In case of mumble, you run apt-get install mumble, and you're done. You can immediately test how sound works, and tune it up beforehand. When conference starts, you just connect to a server and it works.

    In case of UberConference, I see a website I need to register in. No idea how it works. No idea what is needed to join a conference. Does it require a html5 or flash player? How do I test my sound? And there are dozens of those services, each and every one of them has a different user experience.

  2. Node.js will likely set up an example for a lot of projects. Other people, even node.js own working groups would probably like to set up conferences like TSC does. With SaaS they will hit a paywall. I think we should promote free software here, and definitely not those trial-based ones (I even see skype with suspicion on this matter).
mikeal commented 9 years ago

mumble is not "easy to use" and your assumption that the majority of the participants are using apt is way off since most of them are on either Mac or Windows.

You're right, we do need to set an example, and the example we should set is using software that is easy and accessible so that people can easily participate in the process. Picking software with poor usability just because it happens to be an open sourced product rather than a SaaS product (which is probably built from 99% open source software) would be the wrong choice here.

UberConference is SaaS but the foundation will pick up the bill (if there is a bill, we might be able to get a comp'd account).

BTW, this isn't the only SaaS service we're using. We've been using a comp'd YouTube channel and a soundcloud account (paid for by a contributors) since io.js started. Not to mention Google Docs for the meeting minutes and doodle for scheduling. Oh, and we're talking right now on GitHub :)

The guiding principal should be to pick tools that we can easily make accessible to the largest number of contributors. SaaS tends to fit that bill when we get it comp'd or the foundation can easily cover the cost.

rosskukulinski commented 9 years ago

thanks for the reference @rvagg. I chatted with @mikeal this week about the possibility of Yodlr sponsoring a business account for the Node Foundation (we'd love to!). As of today, we're missing the recording feature that the WGs require, but it's something we are working on now and looking to have it ready RSN. In short: Yodlr is a SaaS product for scalable audio conferences, built almost entirely on NodeJS (with one io.js service).

bnoordhuis commented 9 years ago

mumble is not "easy to use" and your assumption that the majority of the participants are using apt is way off since most of them are on either Mac or Windows.

ioquake3 has built-in mumble support and it even has binaries for solaris. Problem solved!

In all seriousness, if uberconference has bad latency, then it's not the right tool for the job.

jbergstroem commented 9 years ago

Just tried out uberconference with a few others. Worked well enough for me. Didn't remark on any latency issues.

mscdex commented 9 years ago

@bnoordhuis If ioquake3 is used, does TSC vote by shooting rockets?

mikeal commented 9 years ago

@bnoordhuis The main latency I experienced was just in waiting for the unmute to happen, it appears to block until it knows you can talk. I don't think there was much more audio latency than Hangouts (maybe 100ms or so).

YurySolovyov commented 9 years ago

Why not IRC + anything-with-good-audio + someone re-streaming (with recording) to YouTube ?

mikeal commented 9 years ago

@YuriSolovyov anything with a complicated setup like that is too hard to get everyone to use. We didn't even really do Google Hangouts well until Rod went and documented the whole process and where to click on the wiki (which is a total pain in the ass BTW).

I want to get to the point where most, if not all, of the setup and publishing is automated.

YurySolovyov commented 9 years ago

I want to get to the point where most, if not all, of the setup and publishing is automated.

Wow, that's pretty ambitious!

Still, many people on YouTube are doing that(tutorials, reviews etc.), shouldn't be all that hard for a developer to figure all out.

Fishrock123 commented 8 years ago

Uberconfrence has been working... somewhat ok. Closing due to inactivity on the tracking issue. This is something still on our minds however.

steviepubliclab commented 7 years ago

Hi there, Interested in this thread again, especially since we've been relying on ICR +Hangout on Air for our Public Lab OpenHours, and now they're getting rid of Hangout on Air.

Still looking for suggestions. Things we really valued about hangout on air were that:

I'd be looking for a system that has those features. Some new things that would be useful are:

Anyone with new ideas or insights now that some time has passed? -Stevie

mikeal commented 7 years ago

BTW, I've been spending a lot of my free time messing with WebRTC audio and recording capabilities. https://github.com/mikeal/roll-call might be something we can get to the point where it could be an alternative.