beginners, nodetogether, and you (us)

[llkats]

Following up on a recent Twitter conversation, and several other conversations that have happened recently, about NodeSchool, NodeTogether, and helping beginners into our community.

As experienced programmers, it's easy to forget the amount of assumed knowledge that we have built up over years of development. Ashley's NodeTogether program excels at getting beginners up and running with basic but crucial technologies like the CLI, git, and npm. These skills are fundamental to be able to access NodeSchool workshoppers, themselves, and can be intimidating for beginners to approach, as well as complicated to set up and install. That's why NodeTogether is a great complementary organization to NodeSchool.

I think that NodeSchool's strengths are in providing a framework and curriculum for the community to host their own events, or even for people to work on exercises on their own time. How could we reach a more distributed audience with NodeTogether's curriculum? Some efforts have been started to codify a general Node curriculum.

At NodeSchool SF, we have "focused sessions", where a smaller group of people are led through a workshop which is more hands-on than the general casual NodeSchool hacking time. I could see leading a NodeTogether-type workshop concurrently with NodeSchool too.

That's everything I've been thinking. What do other people think?

/cc everyone from that Twitter thread: @ashleygwilliams @bengl @jedireza @hackygolucky

[hollomancer]

This is the sort of model we have been discussing internally at Operation Code. Appreciate the link to #113, btw - trying to determine how many sessions a week we want to do, and this will help us build that curriculum out!

[martinheidegger]

As I understand it, "NodeTogether" is a type of event that is specifically selective of its target group and thus purposefully exclusive. I think that is a good thing to have in the community but it is also completely contra to NodeSchool with the principle being: accessible for everyone, open & non judgemental. (somehow I think the names are mixed up: shouldn't NodeSchool and NodeTogether switch names?...) To me NodeSchool It is a place where advanced people can meet beginners and vice versa, where people of different places come together. I don't think that the basic concept of NodeSchool should be changed; its conceptual place is good but its implementation leaves a lot to be desired; Specifically: https://github.com/nodeschool/organizers/issues/378 is in this regard a thorne in the foot of NodeSchool to me that is worth to be removed. In former discussions I suggested to @ashleygwilliams and @hackygolucky to give us feedback on what is problematic with the NodeSchool, but by now nothing concrete has arrived.

[llkats]

I don't see NodeTogether as exclusive or oppositional to NodeSchool at all. Like I mentioned up top, I see them as complementary organizations.

I attended NodeTogether in Amsterdam, curious as to what the event is like, but a little too jetlagged to be an effective mentor. Seeing how Ashley stepped through all of the necessary technology to even begin to use Node really reminded me of how much information needs to be understood before a beginning programmer can even access the NodeSchool workshoppers. NodeTogether was less self-directed and more lesson-oriented than NodeSchool, but there were still attendees and still expert-level mentors helping to guide students. There was still a community being formed and supported.

I don't think anyone is proposing that NodeSchool change. These organizations have identical goals: primarily, to introduce people to Node. While people who already have some programming knowledge will be more familiar with a programming setup and some of the tools and concepts, NodeTogether does the fundamental education for true beginners to be able to start with NodeSchool workshoppers.

At NodeSchool SF, we have some phenomenal and very patient mentors who have sat with true beginners and helped them get all set up. It often takes the entire session for that setup to occur.

The question here is not how can NodeSchool change. NodeTogether's existence does not imply that NodeSchool is problematic. The question is: what can we at NodeSchool learn from NodeTogether and how can we work together to help both organizations succeed in their common mission? How can NodeSchool better support true beginners?

[hollomancer]

From an outside observer - it seems like this is not specifically about NodeTogether's approach vs. NodeSchool, but more about whether NodeSchool should focus on community, or focus on onboarding new beginners.

To me, NodeSchool's brand suggests onboarding more, and NodeTogether's brand suggests community more. This is interesting, because after going a NodeSchool event and going to a NodeTogether event, it felt like the exact opposite.

[martinheidegger]

I am sorry to have drifted away from the topic. Of course we can (and probably should) accommodate people better, both beginners and advanced. I feel like I have poisoned this thread by talking about NodeSchool. @llkats Would you feel comfortable with opening a new issue that address this particularly: "How to accommodate beginners better?".

A "get started section" on the homepage could do a lot of legwork. I.e. Show how (visually, per OS) how to install Node, start a tutorial etc.

[llkats]

No, I don't feel comfortable with opening a new issue. I think that opening this issue, and the reasons for opening it based on the twitter conversation, were just fine for starting this conversation. I am trying to make ties between two strong organizations that have developed great ways of introducing people to Node. But apparently that was not desired, so I'll just close this.

[jedireza]

We should open this back up. And no, there's no reason to create a different thread.

[ashleygwilliams]

:wave: commenting on a closed issue is not always the best move but it feels warranted here.

as the person who started and primarily teaches NodeTogether, i think it is bold that @martinheidegger feels comfortable characterizing it as exclusive and contra to NodeSchool, having not attended any events and knowing how little he does about it.

i designed NodeTogether with NodeSchool in mind and the program has successfully served as stepping stone to NodeSchool for many students all over the world. it is specifically focused on creating a safe and inclusive space for beginners, and we limit the class size because we have limited resources/space, but also so students get enough mentor time and attention. students that apply who are too advanced are encouraged to apply as mentors.

frankly, the insistence on separating the goals of education and community makes absolutely no sense to me. education and community are symbiotic, not opposed. any attempt at one without the other is already setting itself up for failure. an attempt to label NodeTogether or NodeSchool one or the other seems both useless and impossible.

i am eager to collaborate with NodeSchool as i think we have a lot to learn from each other, as well as resources to share.

that being said, the tenor of this conversation seems hostile and unfriendly to me. i have not commented or participated because the attitudes of many NodeSchool representatives have been negative and defensive. if this convo continues, i'd hope that we can spend more time talking about collaborating and what we can learn from each other, and less time negatively characterizing NodeTogether- a topic which, unsurprisingly, i will not be convinced is either constructive or worthwhile.

[martinheidegger]

@ashleygwilliams @llkats Please note that I am retreating/resigning from my work as organizer here and my word has not much say anymore.

[jpwesselink]

What do you do when you have 100 people wanting to attend meetup and you can only host 10? I think that is completely up to the judgment of the organizers. Having said this, we can only advice on how to deal with this, we can not force a strategy. Having said that, this issue - or rather, great addition - should be about what we can influence, which is in this case, our curriculum.

What occurred to me at NodeSchool meetups is that we assume that our students are familiar with a lot of concept we take for granted. NodeTogether provides a great way to get to know those concepts. Therefore it might be a great addition to NodeSchool. Let's continue the dialogue to see how we can help students take that big jump into the world of node.

[hackygolucky]

Clearly the language that was used here has set off some feelings about how much we all care about NodeSchool, NodeTogether, and the Node community. I have worked with tons of organizers from NodeSchool in the community and I'm helping build NodeTogether. There are incredible people in these organizations and I think characterizing an org by one person speaking on a day where they've been triggered by something they care about is not healthy to growing either org separately or collaborating together.

NodeTogether is an org that encourages underrepresented groups to try Node.js by making more space for them(tends to prioritize them in the acceptance queue but this is not a strict line). It does not exclude anyone from participating. It does gate. This is done to help ensure a safe space has been curated. NodeTogether does a really incredible job of starting from nothing on a computer with an operating system, running through the installation process for a dev setup every session(a vital experience for a new dev), and getting the attendees to -try- web programming with Node.js. It is a teacher and a few mentors running through a very specific curriculum that forces the students to interact, engage, and respond. It is loud, interactive, and in the end they have all built the same motivational cat website. An experience like this may be something that many NodeSchool organizers have helped setup, but it is not a consistent experience that has been documented as far as I have seen.

NodeSchool is an incredible and friendly environment(as far as I have experienced) that welcomes you, supplies you with mentors, and gets you running through(most often times) a few workshoppers that the mentors have selected that they can help support. Anyone can attend. This can be good and bad. I've seen that personally in the NodeSchools that I have run. There are victories, there are friends made as you work alongside peers, and there light bulbs that go off that get people to return. NodeSchool as a model is also much easier to run, so running them on a monthly basis allows for a large year-round community to grow from it(and has! Geez louise it's awesome).

What @ashleygwilliams did not share here is her experience in teaching professionally, and what went into NodeTogether for what she felt would help new folks learn programming. Folks completely new to programming or the language may require a different style of learning or engagement in order to absorb what they need to mature in their skills. NodeSchool complements this.

So, all of the above represents arguing for this premise. I'd like to say let's move past that. The premise is worthy! And can be considered experimental.

This week, we ran a combined NodeSchool and NodeTogether in Washington, DC. We were still able to gate the acceptances for NodeTogether and keep the welcoming, open feel for NodeSchool. We had two separate very large rooms side by side. We did the welcome together as one big group, then split off into our two rooms. If someone came to NodeTogether and then realized they new more than they really thought they did(it happens! Thanks, imposter syndrome), they had the opportunity to move on over to NodeSchool. This was valuable to a number of students. It also gives the opportunity for someone who shows up for NodeSchool, not having heard about NodeTogether, and they know zero about Node.js to be able to come over and join NodeTogether instead of leaving feeling lost or drowning in terms they don't know. I think exploring what -this- type of night or weekend(I think a Friday night installfest and Saturday event would be PERFECT) in scheduling and detail is where we should spend energy on this thread.