Incorrect diacritic position for letter jeem when using bullets in InDesign

[robertmiles3]

Title

Incorrect diacritic position for letter jeem when using bullets in InDesign

Font

NotoSansArabic/full/variable/NotoSansArabic[wdth,wght].ttf

Where the font came from, and when

Site: https://github.com/notofonts/arabic/releases/download/NotoSansArabic-v2.012/NotoSansArabic-v2.012.zip Date: 2024-03-24

Font Version

2.012

OS name and version

macOS Sonoma 14.4

Application name and version

Adobe InDesign 19.3

Issue

If bullets/numbering is enabled in Adobe InDesign when containing a word with a medial position jeem ج, the dot of the jeem gets out of place. If bullets/numbering are not used, then all is well.

1. Create a text frame using the "ME Type Tool" in InDesign (for a right-to-left text frame).
2. Paste وين نتجمع؟ in the text frame. Notice the dot of the letter jeem is proper, showing below the main part of the letter.
3. Place the caret inside the text frame at the beginning of the phrase.
4. In the "Bullets and Numbering" property section, click the "Numbered List" button to change the line of text to a numbered list.
5. Notice that the dot for the jeem is no longer below the main part of the letter, but rather is now close to the baseline and barely visible.

Character data

وين نتجمع؟

Screenshot

https://github.com/notofonts/arabic/assets/944302/1c2b36f2-7ba1-4ce9-a5e8-cfec231b3186

[khaledhosny]

That is funny. It seems that the bullet list uses a different layout engine than the regular text (most likely InDesign’s pre-HarfBuzz one), and it breaks other things not just the dot of the jeem:

[robertmiles3]

Weird. So is there a solution or a suggestion? Is it fixable on the font side of things or is it strictly an InDesign problem?

[simoncozens]

It's an InDesign problem. Nothing to be done for the font.

[robertmiles3]

Thanks. I posted a bug report for them, but I'm not holding my breath. Ugh.

[robertmiles3]

Reopening this for a minute...any idea why Noto Sans Arabic UI (2.009) functions properly even with the bullets?

[simoncozens]

It uses a different construction - no mark attachment for the nukte.

[robertmiles3]

I wouldn’t mind using the UI version except it doesn’t seem to have parentheses like the regular version does.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 3:13 PM Simon Cozens @.***> wrote:

It uses a different construction - no mark attachment for the nukte.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/notofonts/arabic/issues/232#issuecomment-2017868135, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAHGRLRXWLMUAKMVCGXVBKLY2AIHNAVCNFSM6AAAAABFF576S6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDAMJXHA3DQMJTGU . You are receiving this because you modified the open/close state.Message ID: @.***>

[robertmiles3]

Is there a way to get Noto Sans Arabic UI "full" version that includes parentheses?

[robertmiles3]

I just noticed that if I install Noto Sans Arabic 2.010 then all is well in InDesign:

v2.010

v2.011 or v2.012

I will say that many other fonts I've tried are not affected by bullets in InDesign.

[simoncozens]

Yes, it's the same issue. We moved from a "fully composed" model (where for example بت is the two glyphs "beh-ar.init", "tah-ar.fina") to a decomposed model ("behDotless-ar.init", "dotbelow-ar", "behDotless-ar.fina", "twodotsabove-ar") which uses mark attachment to put the dots in the right place. This saves a huge number of glyphs and makes the layout code simpler - but it does rely on applications correctly implementing mark attachment, something which has been part of OpenType since around 2000 but still causes problems for Adobe.

[robertmiles3]

Thanks for the response. From the looks of things in the repo, it seems Noto Naskh is also decomposed, right? If so shouldn't that be messed up as well? But it's operating properly. Sorry if these are dumb questions, I'm a font newbie.

[simoncozens]

They all use the same engineering. It's possible that you have Noto Naskh as part of your operating system and an older version is being used in preference to the newer one you have installed...

[robertmiles3]

I just got Noto Naskh today off Google Fonts, but I see it's 2.016. Just installed 2.018 from here and now Naskh also messes up.

I guess I'll just use a different font or go back to Noto Sans v2.010. Thanks for your time.

[khaledhosny]

https://github.com/notofonts/arabic/pull/247 should fix the jeem dot issue, it does not fix the fact that Adobe’s implementation is buggy or fix other issues I pointed to, but it should be enough to fix the originally reported issue.