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notofonts / egyptian-hieroglyphs

Noto Egyptian Hieroglyphs
SIL Open Font License 1.1
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Support Egyptian Hieroglyph Format Controls #1

Open stone-zeng opened 5 years ago

stone-zeng commented 5 years ago

Title

Support Egyptian Hieroglyph Format Controls

Font

NotoSansEgyptianHieroglyphs-Regular.ttf

Font Version

Version 2.000;GOOG;noto-source:20170915:90ef993387c0

Feature request

As in Unicode 12.0, there has been the block Egyptian Hieroglyph Format Controls (U+13430..U+1343F). Please consider to add support for the new added 9 format control characters into Noto Sans Egyptian Hieroglyphs font.

marekjez86 commented 5 years ago

@stone-zeng : it's expensive :-( but we'll try

Serentty commented 5 years ago

Is this a realistic possibility? I would absolutely love to see this added, but I worry that perhaps it might not be seen as worth the effort when it's a dead language. I imagine that perhaps ligatures could be used to implement this.

marekjez86 commented 5 years ago

We are planning to do it

Serentty commented 5 years ago

That's great! I look forward to being able to get proper formatting in Egyptian text.

BrianBakkala commented 4 years ago

What really needs to happen for this to be a possiblity? Is it like a billion ligatures?

dscorbett commented 4 years ago

The font could use ligatures, dynamic composition, or a combination of both. See L2/17-112R and L2/19-331.

marekjez86 commented 4 years ago

Unicode is not quite done with it (changes are under discussion). Until they settle on something we, Noto, will keep the fonts as they are.

BrianBakkala commented 4 years ago

Is there somewhere to see updates?

marekjez86 commented 4 years ago

All of the new scripts and updates are discussed by the Unicode Script AdHoc group (for more information see https://unicode.org/consortium/scriptadhoc.html ). Once they are done they'll present their work to UTC (for the past results see https://www.unicode.org/L2/topical/scriptadhoc/ ).

I don't think that we will see any "work-in-progress" until it is done because 'Citing from the Technical Committee Procedures of the Unicode Consortium, "Discussions during meetings are confidential and are not to be shared publicly without explicit permission of the chair."' (quote from from the AdHoc Group web page https://unicode.org/consortium/scriptadhoc.html ). But once it's presented to UTC it will appear in https://www.unicode.org/L2/topical/scriptadhoc/

BrianBakkala commented 4 years ago

Awesome, thanks so much. Can't wait for this to happen!

PG-Fuury commented 3 years ago

Seems to me as if @xadxura might have published the cluster model mentioned in L2/20-169 page 10, on https://github.com/microsoft/font-tools/tree/master/EgyptianOpenType less than a week ago, is that something that is workable for Noto? I have looked into it a bit, and it seems to me like that might be what the Noto devs were waiting for.

marekjez86 commented 3 years ago

As far as the Noto Sans Eg. Hieroglyphics font that includes the Control Characters are concerned we'll wait until Unicode finally publishes the spec... Submission of a proposal to Unicode doesn't mean that the proposal will be approved :-( I expect Unicode to publish its standard around Sep 2021.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:23 AM louiseyousre2020 notifications@github.com wrote:

Dear Googlefonts/Noto-Fonts, That's great actually!!! I'm waiting for your coming version of Noto Sans Serif Hieroglyphics font that includes the Control Characters ❤️❤️

Louise Yousre, Egypt.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 12:09 PM PG-Fuury notifications@github.com wrote:

Seems to me as if @xadxura https://github.com/xadxura might have published the cluster model mentioned in L2/20-169 page 10, on https://github.com/microsoft/font-tools/tree/master/EgyptianOpenType less than a week ago, is that something that is workable for Noto? I have looked into it a bit, and it seems to me like that might be what the Noto devs were waiting for.

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Serentty commented 2 years ago

It's September 2021 and Unicode 14 was just published. Was this published alongside that? I can't find it anywhere in the standard annexes.

louiseyousre2020 commented 2 years ago

I am not an expert about that but I can see something on https://www.unicode.org/L2/topical/scriptadhoc/ "L2/22-023" related to the Hieroglyphic Script .... what does it mean? will we see any changes in Noto Sans Egyptian Hieroglyphic font?

marekjez86 commented 2 years ago

Copied from https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2022/22023-script-adhoc-rept.pdf "Recommendations: We recommend the UTC make the following dispositions: SAH-UTC170-R3: Accepts 30 Egyptian Hieroglyph characters, as documented in Tables 29-31 of L2/21- 248, for a future version of the standard. (Reference: Section 4a of L2/22-023) SAH-UTC170-R4: Accepts the extension of the Egyptian Hieroglyph Format Controls block from the current allocation U+13430..U+1343F to U+13430..U+1345F. (Reference: Section 4a of L2/22-023)"

This implies that the people (i.e., experts) working on script changes/additions/updates ("script ad-hoc" team) recommend to the UTC update of the Egyptian script. Once (and IF) UTC approves it, it will show up in the Unicode publication (I expect 15.0 around Sep 2022). Then we will consider it along with all of the other Unicode changes, bug fixes, etc...

NorbertLindenberg commented 2 years ago

The UTC has approved – see sections D.1 4a, D.1 4b, and D.1 23a of the minutes of UTC meeting 170: https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2022/22016.htm

Note that nothing is final until the new version of the standard has been published.

SKing-2003 commented 2 years ago

We cover all the hieroglyphs, but implementing the positioning will be too difficult.

Serentty commented 2 years ago

So Noto is dropping the plans to support the proper layout? This seems strange when Segoe Historic from Microsoft, which seems to serve mostly the same purpose, is working on it.

marekjez86 commented 2 years ago

@Serentty : while we do not have a project working on it, we will support it at some point in the future. Reopening it

Serentty commented 2 years ago

I am glad to hear that it is still planned for the future. While downloading a font for a niche use case like this is pretty trivial on desktops, on mobile, having support in Noto can be a really big deal.

Cornan commented 2 years ago

It's unclear to me which of the characters in Egyptian Hieroglyph Format Controls / Range: 13430–1343F, already in Unicode 14.0, will require font support versus those that will require support in the rendering engine (or both, of course).

For example, if the JOINER characters primarily require rendering support, then we would presumably look to our operating systems vendors.

Part of my uncertainty involves when the glyph for the Format Control character (e.g. what looks like a colon for the vertical joiner, x14340) will be displayed, versus when the control character will simply do its job.

I'm not aware of a codepoint indicating "show the control character glyph", or if context will cause the glyph to be shown, or if in fact there will be no way to display the glyph of the control character (for example, in documenting their use).

I would favor initiating support for Unicode 14.0 characters rather than waiting for the next standard. It seems that these formatting / control codepoints will continue to evolve.

dwerning commented 2 years ago

Title

Support Egyptian Hieroglyph Format Controls

Font

NotoSansEgyptianHieroglyphs-Regular.ttf

Font Version

Version 2.000;GOOG;noto-source:20170915:90ef993387c0

Feature request

As in Unicode 12.0, there has been the block Egyptian Hieroglyph Format Controls (U+13430..U+1343F). Please consider to add support for the new added 9 format control characters into Noto Sans Egyptian Hieroglyphs font.

Feature request

In Unicode 15.0, the outcome of the above mentioned intitiative on Egyptian Hieroglyph, i.e., 15 more controls, are finally published: U+13439-13440, 13447-13455. More controls beyond that are not planed at the moment. Please consider taking care of these as well.

For seven new hieroglyphs, see #5. For variation selectors that are registered with certain hieroglyphs, see #6. Some of the above mentioned controls are sensitive to the specific glyph variant selected.

simoncozens commented 1 year ago

Implementing these format controls has now got substantially easier with the addition of the WASM shaper in Harfbuzz. I created a demo version of Noto Sans Egyptian Hieroglyphs which has rudimentary format control support, but productionising it is on my list for next year. (When hopefully WASM support will be more widespread.)

The other issues mentioned will require glyphs to be commissioned and drawn, so won't happen in the near future.

PG-Fuury commented 1 year ago

I actually have several tweets from years ago, around the time of my first comment, which feature the control characters as I understood them to be defined at the time: https://twitter.com/PGFuuryuu/status/1264267675355811840 https://twitter.com/PGFuuryuu/status/1275159417227542528 I would love to eventually have them be rendered correctly

aelatham commented 3 months ago

This should be done before the Unicode 16.0 additions and the variants to characters in the main block and the extended block, which are going to be a lot harder!