U14 pilot PR

[Mercury13]

One hiero per two-thee days — is it OK? No editable SVGs right now, but I can give them.

[Mercury13]

Working on #3!

[Mercury13]

You are free to review and accept/reject, I’ll make a new one.

[dwerning]

QA

• u1300A (man drumming with fists on his chest): fine
• u13005 (kid): fine
• u13032 (king with white crown): fine

Only

• u1302d (god): beard should not be a single long curve but straight at the beginning and only curved at the end, e.g., This applies to all god's beards.

[Mercury13]

Sorry, concerns on 02D, do in the evening.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning, Is old Noto’s curved beard sensible anywhere, or it should be replaced with new one everywhere?

[Mercury13]

@dwerning, 02D OK

[Mercury13]

@dwerning Maybe posture of 018 → 017, 019 → 018? Or what are relations between 017, 018 and 019? If three different → maybe no change, and U14 misfired? Segoe does three different, but difference is not so drastic. I didn’t check U5. U14 states that 017=018<019. My 1st stone: make it out of 018 by leaning more and making a new stick.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning Stopping at 03E for now, is it OK?

[dwerning]

Review by (@dwerning)

• 017: should be identical in posture to 018 except for lower end of stick (sorry that I have not seen this earlier)
• 02D: (does not show in my FontForge!?!)
• 033: fine now, beard correct (longish/not rounded => king's beard)
• 034: fine now
• 038: fine now, beard correct (short/edged/not rounded => noble man's beard)
• 039: fine now
• 03A: beard fine (short/pointed => foreigner's beard; forgot to mention: headdress needs to be changed (should not be an Egyptian god's headdress; see: https://osf.io/9haqz)
• 03B: fine now
• 03C: fine now
• 03D: fine now
• 03E: fine now
• 03F: fine now
• 040: fine now
• 04E: fine now
• 057: fine now
• 075: fine now

Thank you for your work on this!

[dwerning]

@dwerning Maybe posture of 018 → 017, 019 → 018? Or what are relations between 017, 018 and 019? If three different → maybe no change, and U14 misfired? Segoe does three different, but difference is not so drastic. I didn’t check U5. U14 states that 017=018<019. My 1st stone: make it out of 018 by leaning more and making a new stick.

Gardiner states that 018 is "less senile" than 017. Both are old man. However, his font renders both the same, afais, except for the differend ending of the stick. 019 is not an old man, always fully straight.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning What about 03A? U15’s image changed, description is “seated Syrian holding stick”.

[dwerning]

What about 03A? U15’s image changed, description is “seated Syrian holding stick”.

The current headdress is the one of gods and females. For 03A it is supposed to be a foreigner headdress.

It is prepared to change this shape towards in Unicode v16.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning I’ll repeat a question: 1) could you show me 068’s hat in more detail? 2) Should I change his left foot or leave as is; Gardiner and U14 are both green.

[dwerning]

1) could you show me 068’s hat in more detail? 2) Should I change his left foot or leave as is; Gardiner and U14 are both green.

1) A good model best representing original Gardiner shape is in "Segoe UI Historic" (https://osf.io/9haqz). It is, scientifically, not quite clear what kind of headdress this primeval god should have (cf. https://thotsignlist.org/mysign?id=1292). However, the common man's headdress as in Hieroglyphica/Unicode v9/JSesh/Noto is seemingly wrong. One particularly clear example is Sign TSL_1_1292 http://thotsignlist.org/mysign?id=1292, in: Thot Sign List <http://thotsignlist.org>, edited by Université de Liège and Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften.

2) It would be great to change it towads the normal sitting posture like in 000, 04E, ...

[Mercury13]

@dwerning 1305A — also change beard?

[Mercury13]

@dwerning As 068 wears some big hat → leave no ear?

[Mercury13]

@dwerning 03A has new hair from scratch, does not intersect with every other's hair → right?

[Mercury13]

@dwerning 064, 069 to 06D, 06F to 071, 074 — also change beards?

[dwerning]

@Mercury13

• 05A: same nice beard as 02D please
• 02E: same nice beard as 02D please
• 068: very nice already, an extra cavity for the ear would be nice to have
• 03A: now beautiful
• 064: beard fine enough in this resolution, I feel (but technically shape of 02D nicer)
• 069 to 06C (Amun): yes, same beard as 02D please
• 06D (Atum): yes, same beard as 02D please
• 06F (Tatenen): yes, same beard as 02D please
• 070-071 (Ptah): leave as it is (kings beard, sic!)

("074", 075[!]: no beard)

[Mercury13]

I’ve left version with ear, I’ll make. 075 already done, I just looked for gods in my Unicodia which, of course, does not have new glyphs. Checked once again: removed cap from crown, redrew stem sticking from crown, removed beard.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning Final checks before merging: 017, 02D, 02E, 05A, 068 I’ll make gods one by one, and if this PR isn’t merged then, I’ll commit all at once.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning And 075, of course.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning Also done 064, 069, 06A, 06B, 06C, 06D, 06F. All people and gods OK?

[Mercury13]

@dwerning 06A is mirrored 069; 06C is mirrored 06B. Right?

[Mercury13]

@dwerning Please!

[dwerning]

• 068: ear; fine now

• 03F: beard; fine now

• 05A: beard; fine now

• 02E: beard; fine now

• 017: fine

• 02D: fine

• 075: fine

• 064: beard; fine now; ideally, remove the tiny sun disc in the feather crown; see cap and crown in:

• 069: beard; fine now

• 06A: beard; yes, mirrored 069, fine now

• 06B: beard; fine now

• 06C beard; yes, mirrored 06B, fine now

• 06D: beard; fine now

• 06F: beard; fine now

[dwerning]

I wonder why some signs appear at the top of the list when I load the ufo into my FontForge:

[dwerning]

@Mercury13 Sorry, I just realize now, 033 (-- my mistake --), as well as 035-037 are supposed to have the long/curved-at-the-end god's beard. This was a little bit debatable (see https://osf.io/azmvp). But it will be changed to god's beard in v16, see https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2023/23181-n5240-hieroglyphs.pdf.

[Mercury13]

King but divine beard? Interesting. I’ll make. King with king’s beard are other hieros that’ll come in U16?

[Mercury13]

I wonder why some signs appear at the top of the list when I load the ufo into my FontForge:

This is font-internal order of glyphs.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning 064: redrew Min’s feathered crown from scratch without extra details; check whether OK 033: replaced straight king’s beard with curved god’s one 035 036 037: replaced straight king’s beard with curved god’s one, reversed curve directions so outer is CW

As font builder does big job of fixing directions, I didn’t fix for myself unless actually touched.

Do 036 and 075 portray the same crown? Whose image is better? Maybe I’ll replace them all with the best one?

[Mercury13]

@dwerning What to do with 076, 17D?

[dwerning]

King but divine beard? Interesting. I’ll make. King with king’s beard are other hieros that’ll come in U16?

The tricky thing is that pharaoh is king and god at the same time. The rules of interplay with specific crowns is partly unclear (at least to me). In Thot Sign List https://thotsignlist.org/mysign?id=714 there ar not clear examples for 035 with king's beard, but only for god's beard. For 033 both shapes are testified: https://thotsignlist.org/mysign?id=679. Consequently, 035 in Gardiner/Unicode v.5.2 and again in v16 had/will have the god's beard with 035-037 and -- to be consistent with the parallel 035-037 -- also 033.

Yes, versions with kings beard are going to be in the larger set (*68A/B in the proposal https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2023/23181-n5240-hieroglyphs.pdf). I have asked the font designer to make the beards more clearly a kings beard. Thanks for pointing at this question.

[dwerning]

• 064 (Min-Amun): very nice

• 033, 035-037: beards now in line with v5.2 and v16[proposal]

• crown in 035-037 vs. 075: yes, same crown, shape at the very top in 035-037 is better; caveat: 075 is the female god/goddess Neith; please, keep the fact/difference that there is no cloth hanging from the crown in 075 (might be relevant)

• 076, ideally beard filled with black, little smaller altogether: ====>

• 17D, ideally beard shorter: =====>

[Mercury13]

Thank you, tonight. I see that 035 has something hanging from the crown. So 075 remake crown 076 short beard, IDK black or outlined — I’ll better make it bolder but not completely black 17D short beard

[dwerning]

... 17D short beard

BTW: this was also a very tricky issue. Attestations often seem to have the god's beard (but not always?), cf. https://thotsignlist.org/mysign?id=3587 and https://thotsignlist.org/mysign?id=3588 (all not very clear). However, Gardiner and v9-15 all have it short (men's beard?) (v5.2 had no beard mistakenly). So the Unicode discussion group decided to stick to that shape og Gardiner/v9-15 for the time being.

[Mercury13]

@dwerning 075 = 038 − beard − cloak 076 changed beard 17D shorter beard, removed curves from rectilinear segments, fixed direction

[dwerning]

• 075: fine now (top of crown now better)
• 076: much nicer now
• 17D: clearer now

[Mercury13]

@dwerning Can merge now 34 hieros: crowns, beards?

[dwerning]

@dwerning Can merge now 34 hieros: crowns, beards?

Looks good to me.

[Mercury13]

@simoncozens Merge now?

[Mercury13]

Final check (first date when committed, then when checked) --- 00 --- 00A Oct 9-10 OK 015 (erroneously referred as 005) Oct 09-10 OK 017 Oct 13-16 OK 02D Oct 13-16 OK 02E Oct 14-16 OK --- 05 --- 032 Oct 9-10 OK 033 Oct 16-17 OK 034 Oct 10-13 OK 035 036 Oct 16-17 OK --- 10 --- 037 Oct 16-17 OK 038 039 03A 03B Oct 10-13 OK --- 15 --- 03C 03D 03E Oct 10-13 OK 03F Oct 12-13/16 OK 040 Oct 12-13 OK --- 20 --- 04E Oct 12-13 OK 057 Oct 13 (I fell very tired on 12th, then woke up at night and worked a bit) OK 05A Oct 14-16 OK 064 Oct 16-17 OK 068 Oct 14-16 OK --- 25 --- 069 06A 06B 06C 06D Oct 15-16 OK --- 30 --- 06F Oct 15-16 OK 075 076 17D Oct 18 (worked at night though do not remember 😲) OK --- Total 34

Gods, people and humanoids only