Add Navajo letterforms for smallcaps vowels with ogonek

[brawer]

Noto Sans and Serif currently have no smallcaps ogonek’ed vowels in the Navajo letter form. We should add aogonek.sc.loclNAV, eogonek.sc.loclNAV, etc.

[twardoch]

Yes — in case of Navajo ogoneks, it definitely makes sense to keep making localized variants. I don't think those can be easily made "universal" akin to acutes.

[nv-wiki]

You can close this. Looks awesome, exactly as it should. Thank you.

[brawer]

No, smallcaps aogonek.loclNAV.sc is still missing. Likewise the other smallcaps ogonek letters.

[nv-wiki]

yes, you are right. I did not see you meant smallcaps.

(I guess I am just so happy there are finally some correct font sets available.)

[moyogo]

Looking at Navajo documents which in many cases use the right-attached ogonek and seeing Paul’s comments on https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-sans/issues/75#issuecomment-771293028 it doesn’t look like this special positioning of ogonek for Navajo is needed.

[simoncozens]

I'm worried about a chicken-and-egg situation here: do Navajo documents use right-attached ogonek because that's what they prefer, or because existing fonts don't have good enough support for the preferred form?

[nv-wiki]

Again. it's supposed to be in the middle. We all place it in the middle in handwriting, always. But most websites and publishers don't give a damn ('cause, y'know, it's just Injuns), and so we use whatever white people give us, even if it's not pretty...

[simoncozens]

That's pretty much what I thought. So we need a small caps with Navajo centered ogoneks, which at least creates the possibility of using a different form. (Correct handling of Navajo language selection in software - supporting the OpenType language tag - so that people can actually use the thing is a harder issue; something we can agitate for but ultimately out of our hands. I suggest we use a stylistic set, if we don't have one already.)

[moyogo]

It’s a chicken-and-egg situation for both ways from what I gather. The problem with saying one way is better based on what one is used to is not definitive. The issue here is that we’re getting contradicting information from experts, which reflects what has or is being used.

Just to be clear, the Navajo variants were added for issue #249 based on the observation that custom non-Unicode Navajo fonts like Times New Roman Navajo from http://www.navajocourts.org/navfonts.htm (now https://courts.navajo-nsn.gov/navfonts.htm), Verdana Navajo from http://www.odclc.navajo-nsn.gov/, Century Gothic Navajo and both Times New Roman Navajo and Verdana Navajo from http://www.lapahie.com/Dine_Bizaad.cfm, or Verdana Navajo from http://dine.sanjuan.k12.ut.us/ used centered ogoneks. Lucida Sans Navajo from https://www.johnmacfarlane.net/navfont.html and a Times New Roman from Dine College (different from the previous ones) http://hooghan.dinecollege.edu/library/dcl-comm.htm or https://www.dinecollege.edu/current_students/current-students/ could also be added to that list.

Regarding the "because Injuns" argument, this also goes both ways. Some centered ogoneks in those fonts seem poorly attached (centered but not adjusted to overlap the letter) or very odd (one has an detached reversed cedilla). The centered ogonek under capital A is particulary problematic as it looks out of place (it should be redesigned to be centered). So it’s understandable a designer would question whether this is because of typewriter or computer technology limitations or because it’s an actual language requirement.

Looking at printed documents (which use fonts apparently better crafted than the ones listed above), the majority centers the ogonek or has the ogonek on or close to the right stem.

Here are some samples:

Ann Clark, Hoke Denetsosie, John P. Harrington, Robert W. Young, Little herder in spring = Dáago nańiłkaadí yázhí, Phoenix, Ariz.: Printing dept., Phoenix Indian school, 1940

• centered stylised ogonek on Ą́, inside cover page
• right attached ogonek on Ą́, p. 67
• right-ish or center-ish ogonek on ą́ (more centered than typical Polish/Lithuanian)
• centered ogonek on ę́

William Morgan, Mogi t’aa at’eheju’ iilwo’ll, 1948

• right-ish or center-ish ogonek on ą́

Quite a few more 1940s books use that same Metro font.

Berard Haile, Irvy W. Goosen, Karl W. Luckert, *Navajo coyote tales: the Curly Tó Aheedlíinii version, Lincoln and London: University of Nebraska, 1984

• centered ogonek on ę́, ą́ and ą

Marvin Yellowhair, Fred Bia, Stephen Wallace, Regina H. Lynch, Acheii bahane’ = Grandfather stories, Rough Rock, Arizona: Materials Development Project, Rough Rock Demonstration School, 1984

• centered detached ogonek on Ą́, p. 9

Roger Hathale, Hózhǫ́ǫ́jí hane’ = Blessingway, 1986

• centered ogonek on ą́ (with odd acute position)
• left ogonek on ę́ (with odd acute position)

Something needs to be done for the capital A. Given the history of right-ish attached ogonek on A, it may be better to attach the ogonek on the right stem, but more centered that on Polish/Lithuanian. Alternatively it should have an ogonek specifically designed to be centered.

Edit: added example from Yellowhair 1984

[nv-wiki]

The centered hook under the capital A does not look "odd," it's exactly where it's supposed to be. It looks healthy, even if your white eyes cannot see it.

But in the end, you can can do whatever you want. You have the guns, the knives, the money, and the army, and you can kill all of us. That does not mean you are right; it just means you have the power.

[moyogo]

@nv-wiki You have no idea who I am or where I'm from.

I'm saying the ogonek under capital A looks odd because it's designed to be attached but used centered. I'm saying if we keep it centered, which matches some examples I have provided, it needs to be adjusted to be designed to be centered.

[moyogo]

@nv-wiki Please have a look at the left (adjusted) and the right (as now) below: