Access to German phone book Klicktel

[jammerhexe]

The most used phone book CD by blind People in Germany is the CD from Klicktel. Unfortunately the lists and menues of the database isn't accessible with NVDA. I could provide an ISO Image of an issue of Klicktel from last year via Dropbox. Because NVDA reads the first entry in the list it may be only a minor Problem to add Access to this Software.

[jammerhexe]

[> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35365392/Klicktel.iurl)

[jammerhexe]

Forgot to add the link to my Dropbox https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35365392/Klicktel.iso

[Adriani90]

@jammerhexe are you still able to reproduce this issue? Is it working with NVDA 2019.1 Beta 1?

[jammerhexe]

Yes, Klicktel still isn‘t accessible. The iso image of the old version should exist on my nas

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Am 06.03.2019 um 20:38 schrieb Adriani90 notifications@github.com:

@jammerhexe are you still able to reproduce this issue? Is it working with NVDA 2019.1 Beta 1?

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

[Adriani90]

Ok so you tested with last clicktel version. Right?

[jammerhexe]

No, as you know Klicktel comes two times a year. My issue is from spring 2018. but I suppose they haven‘t changed someting of the osm since many year years

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Am 07.03.2019 um 22:27 schrieb Adriani90 notifications@github.com:

Ok so you tested with last clicktel version. Right?

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[Adriani90]

This is still an issue with clicktel 2024, NVDA cannot really read anything on its interface except for confirmation dialogs and some of the edit fields. With object navigation it is possible to explore some of the controls, though most of them do not have any accessible labels and you cannot route the mouse to them. Jaws doesn't work with this interface at all, its virtual jaws cursor can read some of the controls but it is not possible to work with it. Narator seems to be the only screen reader that recognizes properly some of the controls via its scan mode, but it is still far from an accessible UX. The menu and the toolbar are not accessible at all with any of the screen readers.

We didn't read any user requests for clicktel accessibility since many years, neither in the german communication channels. It might be better to contact the company directly and to start an advisory initiative if they want. There is nothing NVDA can do at this stage.

I am closing this particular issue as can't fix.

[jammerhexe]

Hi,

my old version 11 of COBRA (last version before Baum wend out of business) still have no problems with Klicktel. Anything needed is accessible with COBRA. So it seems it isn’t impossible to solve the problem at all.

Yours sincerely

Arno

Von: Adriani90 Gesendet: Samstag, 6. April 2024 23:25 An: nvaccess/nvda Cc: jammerhexe; Mention Betreff: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Access to German phone book Klicktel (#6135)

This is still an issue with clicktel 2024, NVDA cannot really read anything on its interface except for confirmation dialogs and some of the edit fields. With object navigation it is possible to explore some of the controls, though most of them do not have any accessible labels and you cannot route the mouse to them. Jaws doesn't work with this interface at all, its virtual jaws cursor can read some of the controls but it is not possible to work with it. Narator seems to be the only screen reader that recognizes properly some of the controls via its scan mode, but it is still far from an accessible UX. The menu and the toolbar are not accessible at all with any of the screen readers. We didn't read any user requests for clicktel accessibility since many years, neither in the german communication channels. It might be better to contact the company directly and to start an advisory initiative if they want. There is nothing NVDA can do at this stage. I am closing this particular issue as can't fix. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[jammerhexe]

Hi Adriani,

in addition, if you didn’t run COBRA – there is a download site of the German Screenreader mailing list at http://screenreader.downloads.blindzeln.org user and passwort are blindzeln. COBRA 11.x will run as demo for iIrc. 30 minutes. So you can test it. Klicktel is accessible with COBRA.

Yours sincerely

Arno

Von: Adriani90 Gesendet: Samstag, 6. April 2024 23:25 An: nvaccess/nvda Cc: jammerhexe; Mention Betreff: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Access to German phone book Klicktel (#6135)

This is still an issue with clicktel 2024, NVDA cannot really read anything on its interface except for confirmation dialogs and some of the edit fields. With object navigation it is possible to explore some of the controls, though most of them do not have any accessible labels and you cannot route the mouse to them. Jaws doesn't work with this interface at all, its virtual jaws cursor can read some of the controls but it is not possible to work with it. Narator seems to be the only screen reader that recognizes properly some of the controls via its scan mode, but it is still far from an accessible UX. The menu and the toolbar are not accessible at all with any of the screen readers. We didn't read any user requests for clicktel accessibility since many years, neither in the german communication channels. It might be better to contact the company directly and to start an advisory initiative if they want. There is nothing NVDA can do at this stage. I am closing this particular issue as can't fix. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[Adriani90]

Thanks Arno for this valuable update. It is certainly more than worth it to investigate how Cobra can work with it while all other screenreaders don‘t. I wonder if Cobra has some sort of custom app modules? Is there a way to somehow send the code to NV Access so they can investigate? I am reopening this one.

[jammerhexe]

Hi Adriani,

as I wrote in my last mail Baum is out of business. Of course the people there are still alive. But as far as I know they are no longer willing in giving any support to COBRA. Jürgen Thelen who wrote the scrips for MY COBRA INSTALLATION to made it accessible FOR SAP is now employed by Papenmeyer https://www.google.com/search?q=j%C3%BCrgen+thelen+papenmeyer&sca_esv=ae442b666983332b&sxsrf=ACQVn09KcRwMZiSfm2CA3oUVwQvdlZEudg%3A1712492951348&source=hp&ei=l5ESZpP3EvKM7NYPzvK_-Ag&iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZhKfp-HLX64ce-C_BV27LyGjNuZzqyFf&ved=0ahUKEwjTnqywjbCFAxVyBtsEHU75D48Q4dUDCBc&uact=5&oq=j%C3%BCrgen+thelen+papenmeyer&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihlqw7xyZ2VuIHRoZWxlbiBwYXBlbm1leWVyMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFIzooBUABY2YcBcAB4AJABAJgB4iOgAf65AaoBAzktNrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCBqAC2roBwgIFEAAYgATCAgYQABgWGB7CAgcQIRgKGKABmAMAkgcFOC0yLjSgB4QX&sclient=gws-wiz&zx=1712493112232&no_sw_cr=1#ip=1

Some other members of the Baum crew, too. Steffen König who was member of the support team is afaIk. Retired. I don’t know his private address.

Yours sincerely

Arno

Von: Adriani90 Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. April 2024 14:08 An: nvaccess/nvda Cc: jammerhexe; Mention Betreff: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Access to German phone book Klicktel (#6135)

Thanks Arno for this valuable update. It is certainly more than worth it to investigate how Cobra can work with it while all other screenreaders don‘t. I wonder if Cobra has some sort of custom app modules? Is there a way to somehow send the code to NV Access so they can investigate? I am reopening this one. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[jammerhexe]

Hi Adriani,

today I asked Steffen König about his knowledge about the accessibility of Klicktel with COBRA. Below I copy his answer in German to my request. Probably it is helpful to resolve the problem.

Hallo Herr Schuh,

unter Virgo 4 war die Klicktel mittels Script zugänglich gemacht worden, wobei dieses Script im Wesentlichen die Verfolgung der Vorder- und/oder Hintergrundfarbe des Auswahlbalkens in den verschiedenen Ergebnislisten der Suche realisiert hat.

Mit der Fusion von Virgo 4 und Blindows wurde in COBRA dann die unter Blindows bereits vorhandene Möglichkeit genutzt, eine Anwendung mittels Class.ini und Colors.ini zugänglich zu machen, indem die in der OSM.dll (OSM steht für OffScreen Model) definierten Windows Controls, deren Eigenschaften und Methoden von Anwendungen für die jeweiligen Fensterklassen angepasst wurden.

Kurz gesagt bedeutet dies, dass man mit Hilfe der von MS zur Verfügung gestellten Accessibility Tools (wie z.B. dem Inspect) die Elementtypen einer Anwendung, wie z.B. die Menubar, das Submenu, die Checkbox, der Radiobutton, die Listbox, das Treeview etc. sowie deren Events, analysiert und sofern noch nicht vorhanden in der OSM.dll verfügbar machen und dann via Class.ini der Anwendung x zuordnen konnte.

Auf diese Weise war es unter COBRA möglich den von einer Anwendung x verwendeten Elementtypen, welche nicht dem Windows Standard entsprachen, via Class.ini eine entsprechende Fensterklasse zuzuweisen, so dass COBRA dann der jeweiligen Fensterklasse entsprechendes Verhalten an den Tag legte.

So wurde beispielsweise den in der Klicktel nicht Windows-konformen Controls via Class.ini verklickert, dass, wenn beispielsweise ein Element der Menubar den Fokus hat, COBRA diesen verfolgt und entsprechend dem Windows Standard behandelt, was zur Folge hatte, dass COBRA diesen Elementtyp als Hauptmenü erkannt und sich entsprechend der Fokusevents etc. korrekt verhalten hat.

Eigentlich gehe ich fest davon aus, dass sich auch die Entwickler von NVDA der Microsoft Accessibility Tools bedienen. Dennoch hier ein Link, welcher Ihnen mehr zu diesem Thema vermitteln sollte.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winauto/inspect-objects

VG, Steffen König.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Arno Schuh @.> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. April 2024 11:03 An: @. Betreff: p.m. Cobra und Klicktel

Hallo Herr König,

auch auf die Gefahr hin, dass Sie nichts mehr zu Cobra sagen können oder wollen - ich habe da eine Frage: Ich nutze aus verschiedenen Gründen immer noch gerne die Klicktel-CD, um einfach Adressen zu kopieren usw. Cobra hatte mit der Klicktel ja kein Problem, d. h., die Menüs, die Listen usw. waren und sind mit Cobra zugänglich. Ich hatte bei NVDA ein Ticket eingereicht und darum gebeten, die Klicktel auch für NVDA zugänglich zu machen. Leider sehen sie sich außer Stande dazu.

Wie hat Cobra das gemacht? Wurde dafür ein Script geschrieben? Können Sie mir etwas an Informationen dazu geben, was ich an die Entwickler von NVDA weitergeben könnte, damit sie testen können, ob NVDA zugänglich gemacht werden kann?

Freundliche Grüße

Arno Schuh

Von: Adriani90 Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. April 2024 14:08 An: nvaccess/nvda Cc: jammerhexe; Mention Betreff: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Access to German phone book Klicktel (#6135)

Thanks Arno for this valuable update. It is certainly more than worth it to investigate how Cobra can work with it while all other screenreaders don‘t. I wonder if Cobra has some sort of custom app modules? Is there a way to somehow send the code to NV Access so they can investigate? I am reopening this one. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>