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support for Optelec convertcard #6731

Closed Bamze66 closed 6 years ago

Bamze66 commented 7 years ago

Hi. I have an braille wouager and a Optelec convertecard wich makes it possible to use braille voyager for newer computers. I am not expert, but as i understand it, the card convert braille voyager and even other older braildisplays from Tieman to a newer protocols like alva. However this card is working on jaws, Windows eyes, and other screenreaders. However nvda does not work with this card. I believe it is more then me who have this issue, a new brailledisplay is not the cheepest eithem you can buy. so support for this would be an good idea. I am not a programer, but i'm not believe this is an bigger task to fix. That could be integrated in that allready alva drivers wich is allready included in NVDA.

LeonarddeR commented 7 years ago

Interesting, I do not know this device. CC @dkager What display do you have to select in other screen readers in order to get the voyager working with this convert device?

Bamze66 commented 7 years ago

Hi. In jaws i select something call Optelec Alva BC6. I dont know, but there is even drivers for this card in order to use with jawsand other screanrederscan of curse sen it to some one if it's helpful.

Alexander Den 2017-01-14 kl. 09:36, skrev Leonard de Ruijter:

Interesting, I do not know this device. CC @dkager What display do you have to select in other screen readers in order to get the voyager working with this convert device?

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dkager commented 7 years ago

I have heard of this card and even seem to recall there being a reason why it it not in NVDA. But I don't know what device ID it uses. We could ping Optelec, unless @jcsteh can shed some light.

josephsl commented 7 years ago

Hi, at this time, besides Jamie, you should contact VFO to see what’s up. Thanks.

From: Davy Kager [mailto:notifications@github.com] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 3:29 AM To: nvaccess/nvda nvda@noreply.github.com Cc: Subscribed subscribed@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] support for Optelec convertcard (#6731)

I have heard of this card and even seem to recall there being a reason why it it not in NVDA. But I don't know what device ID it uses. We could ping Optelec, unless @jcsteh https://github.com/jcsteh can shed some light.

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jcsteh commented 7 years ago

As I understand it, this should work with our ALVA driver. What happens if you select "ALVA BC640/680 series" from the braille displaylist?

Bamze66 commented 7 years ago

It say something like can not initiate the brailledisplay. And om my voyager i can read the velcome tex "braille voyager conected".

Den 2017-01-14 kl. 22:28, skrev James Teh:

As I understand it, this should work with our ALVA driver. What happens if you select "ALVA BC640/680 series" from the braille displaylist?

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dkager commented 7 years ago

Could you share the log file:

I wonder if our alvaw32.dll is too old. Upgrading this library would add a lot of dependencies if I remember correctly.

Bamze66 commented 7 years ago

Is this ok?

ERROR - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (12:04:39): Error initializing display driver Traceback (most recent call last): File "braille.pyc", line 1502, in setDisplayByName File "brailleDisplayDrivers\alvaBC6.pyc", line 58, in init RuntimeError: No ALVA display found INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (12:04:39): Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.

Den 2017-01-15 kl. 11:57, skrev Davy Kager:

Could you share the log file:

  • NVDA menu
  • Tools
  • View log
  • Copy the bottom lines, which should say something about an error.

I wonder if our alvaw32.dll is too old. Upgrading this library would add a lot of dependencies if I remember correctly.

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dkager commented 7 years ago

Yeah, it looks to me like the library from Optelec doesn't find the display.

Bamze66 commented 7 years ago

Yes, it's so i understand it also. An no profecional gues, could it have something to do that i run 64 bit pc? But on other hand, the brailldisplay is not dead, it wake up when i turn on the computer so my unprofecional gues that it must have something to do with drivers for nvda. There is maybe some one who from optelec or have conection with them and can find out how this card works?????

Den 2017-01-15 kl. 12:13, skrev Davy Kager:

Yeah, it looks to me like the library from Optelec doesn't find the display.

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jcsteh commented 7 years ago

Was the converter connected to the computer via USB, serial or Bluetooth?

It's possible that the older version of the ALVA dll we use doesn't support this, but that surprises me because I thought this converter was released long before the new dll was released. We definitely can't update to the newer dll; it introduces a lot of large dependencies. We'd either need to write a new driver using the raw protocol or drop the ALVA driver from NVDA itself and distribute it as an add-on with the new dll. We don't have access to one of these converters, though, so there's no guarantee we'd get it right if we wrote a new driver.

gregjozk commented 7 years ago

Hi,

discussion about problems with protocol converter can be found at issue #5493, where has been already told, that a newest library is too big to be included in NVDA core... Whatever I still have a problem but as work around I have begun using a BRLTTY also on 64-bit systems when I wanted to use an ALVA Satellite. When I use other screen readers, I use Satellite with protocol converter. I'm refferencing this to #5493, because the protocol converter supports both Braille Voyager braille displays and Satellite braille displays.

dkager commented 7 years ago

Fair enough, but is the old (current) library supposed to support the converter? Is the raw protocol documented anywhere? This might be tricky to get right on Bluetooth.

Bamze66 commented 7 years ago

This old displays does not support bluetooth. And personaly i think an solotion would be better to find without BRLTTY, it's for an mayority of users very tricky and only for tech-.persons. As i understand Linux is prio 1 for them. I hope you people who has an knowlegde about this, will find and solotion without brltty. to

Den 2017-01-16 kl. 15:48, skrev Davy Kager:

Fair enough, but is the old (current) library supposed to support the converter? Is the raw protocol documented anywhere? This might be tricky to get right on Bluetooth.

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gregjozk commented 7 years ago

Hi,

here we talk about usb connection. the usb protocol converter presents Satellite and Voyager displays as BC6 displays. unfortunately, when a display is connected to a computer via this hardware interface, NVDA says "could not load BC6 display" even a device is plugged in and display is ready.

oh, how protocol converter connects? a device has to connectors:

regards, Jožef

2017-01-16 16:07 GMT+01.00, Bamze66 notifications@github.com:

This old displays does not support bluetooth. And personaly i think an solotion would be better to find without BRLTTY, it's for an mayority of users very tricky and only for tech-.persons. As i understand Linux is prio 1 for them. I hope you people who has an knowlegde about this, will find and solotion without brltty. to

Den 2017-01-16 kl. 15:48, skrev Davy Kager:

Fair enough, but is the old (current) library supposed to support the converter? Is the raw protocol documented anywhere? This might be tricky to get right on Bluetooth.

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jcsteh commented 7 years ago

@dkager commented on 17 Jan. 2017, 12:48 am AEST:

Fair enough, but is the old (current) library supposed to support the converter?

I don't know. I assumed so, but that seems not to be the case.

I do know that the converter has a different USB product id. That is, it doesn't show up as a 640 or a 680; it has its own id. I guess the older dll mustn't know about this id.

Is the raw protocol documented anywhere?

I do have the documentation from Optelec, yes. It's not publicly available, though. (Don't get me started on how ridiculous that is.) If someone wants to work on this, I can probably provide it.

This might be tricky to get right on Bluetooth.

I don't think the converter supports Bluetooth? As for the BC640/680, I also have the Bluetooth protocol documentation. Unfortunately, it's a completely different protocol to the one they use for USB.

gregjozk commented 7 years ago

Yes, protocol converter supports only USB, cause this works with displays (Voyager and Satellite), which do not have a BT interface.

dkager commented 7 years ago

I have a BC6, so I could give this a shot. But a few remarks first:

LeonarddeR commented 7 years ago

An add-on with dll doesn't have to mean that we have to throw away the driver in core. The add-on can just replace the driver in core IMO.

jcsteh commented 7 years ago

@dkager commented on 17 Jan. 2017, 5:32 pm AEST:

  • It is not completely certain that the DLL is the culprit. I could ask Optelec about it, we also had contact last year when I extended the BC6 keymap.

I do have contacts at Optelec, but we haven't had any contact since the merge with VFO. I can try poking them if need be.

  • I am not experienced enough in this to do it without looking at an existing driver. Maybe the one for the Brailliant BI?

brailliantB is probably the best driver to start with. It has to support both HID and Bluetooth serial and uses the new hwIo stuff for both.

  • Or is the user base small enough to justify an addon with latest DLL? In The Netherlands there are still quite a few users of this display, so that would increase the threshold a bit for them.

It isn't an ideal solution, but nor is the current situation. I'll discuss with others here. We do have a BC640, though it's not currently with me at the moment.

@leonardder commented on 17 Jan. 2017, 5:34 pm AEST:

An add-on with dll doesn't have to mean that we have to throw away the driver in core. The add-on can just replace the driver in core IMO.

I disagree. It is difficult to explain, will confuse users and will thereby create additional support load.

dkager commented 7 years ago

I wonder if there would be any other benefits to a Python-based driver. For me as BC640 user support for the converter card isn't very interesting. But maybe something like automatic reconnect or thread safety. If nothing else I'll gladly test the new driver if it is realized. Maybe poking VFO is a good idea. Your contacts are probably better than mine. :)

gregjozk commented 7 years ago

Hi,

for existing BC6 users, there is no benefit, but benefit is for users, who use Satellite series displays (544 Pro, 570, 584 Pro and 544 Traveller) and Voyager series. In South slavic countries there are many users who use these display especially Satellite series.

Regards, Jožef

2017-01-18 10:39 GMT+01.00, Davy Kager notifications@github.com:

I wonder if there would be any other benefits to a Python-based driver. For me as BC640 user support for the converter card isn't very interesting. But maybe something like automatic reconnect or thread safety. If nothing else I'll gladly test the new driver if it is realized. Maybe poking VFO is a good idea. Your contacts are probably better than mine. :)

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jcsteh commented 7 years ago

Auto reconnect is not something that should be done in individual drivers. It will happen as part of braille display detection (#1271).

The other thing moving to a Python based driver gives us is direct access to the braille keys so NVDA can use its own braille input code, rather than the ALVA's own braille translator. Right now, that's probably not a massive win, but it will be once we have uncontracted and contracted input.

I may get a chance to look at this some time in the next few months, but I'm not certain.

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

Related issue: #7733.

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

This will be covered by #7733. I'm not treating this issue as duplicate though, since it covers a specific case which is currently not available in NVDA, whereas other Alva users can already use most if not all functions of their displays.

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

@Adriani90 reported in #1586 that the Converter Card isn't working as expected.

It would be really helpful if we could have a log file of what's going wrong when trying to connect to the particular Voyager display you mentioned. Would you or the user your mentioned be able to retrieve a log with debug logging enabled? To have as much debug information as possible, please also do the following

  1. Open a python console (nvda+control+z)

  2. Paste the following in the console, and press enter: import config; config.conf['debugLog']['hwIo']=True

  3. Try to connect to the Voyager using the new Optelec driver.

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

@gregjozk: Do you still have no possibilities to test this device?

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

@michaeldcurran: I labeled this p2, since the converter card is promised to work in 2018.1, and it looks like it doesn't, though we followed the protocol and there aren't issues with native BC devices. I think it should at least be a show stopper for a release of 2018.1 until we've found out what's causing the problem reported by @Adriani90

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

Here is a try build that is likely to fix this issue.

Adriani90 commented 6 years ago

Dear all,

first of all sorry for the delay. We had to conduct more testings. I am unfotunately not allowed to upload things at this time, so I will paste the Content of the log files in here. But this should not be a Problem because searching for the "alva" or "enter" will bring you to the relevant results.

Adriani90 commented 6 years ago

First file: NVDA 2017.4, Braille extender addon installed, alvaw32.dll replaced by .dll as of 04.12.2013:

Edit by @leonardder: Removed log snippet.

Adriani90 commented 6 years ago

As you can see, the Display works.

Adriani90 commented 6 years ago

File 2: NVDA Try Build provided by @Leonardder, alvaw32.dll has not been replaced:

Edit by @Leonardder: Removed all irrelevant information

DEBUG - hwIo.Hid.__init__ (08:53:44.372):
Opening device \\?\hid#vid_0798&pid_0699&col01#7&14bb817d&0&0000#{4d1e55b2-f16f-11cf-88cb-001111000030}
DEBUG - hwIo.Hid.__init__ (08:53:44.410):
Report byte lengths: input 3, output 43, feature 16
DEBUG - hwIo.Hid.getFeature (08:53:44.411):
Get feature: '\x05\x00\xf4\x00\x04\x00,\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
DEBUG - hwIo.Hid.getFeature (08:53:44.411):
Get feature: '\n\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
ERROR - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (08:53:44.411):
Error initializing display driver
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "braille.pyc", line 1569, in setDisplayByName
  File "brailleDisplayDrivers\alva.pyc", line 194, in __init__
  File "brailleDisplayDrivers\alva.pyc", line 146, in _updateSettings
  File "brailleDisplayDrivers\alva.pyc", line 303, in _handleTime
ValueError: year is out of range
INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (08:53:44.477):
Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.
Adriani90 commented 6 years ago

The same result can be obtained when replacing the alvaw32.dll with the alvaw32.dll from 04.12.2013.

So, the value error says "year out of range".

Since it could be related to the addon Braille extender as well, @andre9642, do you have any workarounds in your addon for such cases?

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

Thanks for your log files.

In the future, you can upload attachments using github. Indeed, you can't upload log files, but if you change the .log extension to .txt, you will be able to do it right away.

Also note that alvaw32.dll is not of any relevance any more, this is a native driver that doesn't use a dll. The alvaw32.dll has to be removed at some point. See nvaccess/nvda-misc-deps#7.

I've found the cause of the problem and will provide a try build in an hour or two.

LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

@adriani90, could you please test this build? Just to make sure, it is not necessary to perform tests regarding the unused dll.

Adriani90 commented 6 years ago

Hello, thanks I will test it. Regarding uploads, I was at work and we have upload restrictions.

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.03.2018 um 17:34 schrieb Leonard de Ruijter notifications@github.com:

Thanks for your log files.

In the future, you can upload attachments using github. Indeed, you can't upload log files, but if you change the .log extension to .txt, you will be able to do it right away.

Also note that alvaw32.dll is not of any relevance any more, this is a native driver that doesn't use a dll. The alvaw32.dll has to be removed at some point. See nvaccess/nvda-misc-deps#7.

I've found the cause of the problem and will provide a try build in an hour or two.

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LeonarddeR commented 6 years ago

Outstanding problems should have been fixed in NVDA 2018.1RC2. Closing this again.