Closed cuboideum closed 2 years ago
This is beautifully laid out. I understand black boxes to be instances, and grey boxes to be classes. I am a bit unclear about the 'specifies value of' relationship between the 'Complete glabella region' and and the specific instance 'Completeness of glabella 01'. I was also expecting some kind of 'completeness assessment process'. But one problem for me is that I am not sure I completely understand the domain. I would love to talk this through on a call. The example is very much in scope, and it needs to be possible to document it as you have done here.
It might be useful to switch to an example that is easier to grasp for people outside of the domain other than skeletal completeness, but that has the exact same structure that you are looking for. For example, a study using blood samples that were biobanked, and where only samples stored in a certain type of tube are considered as being appropriate for a study.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 7:40 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
@jamesaoverton https://github.com/jamesaoverton has encouraged us https://github.com/RDFBones/RDFBones-O/issues/112#issuecomment-382013841 to contribute a use case involving categorical data specifications. Use Case
We https://github.com/RDFBones are implementing the OBI in a software supporting biological anthropologists with the documentation of their osteological studies on human skeletons from archaeological or forensic backgrounds. Completeness and preservation of these skeletons are recorded in 'skeletal inventories' which we model as data sets. Study designs of various types of investigations formulate requirements (plan specifications) for data items in these datasets that need to be met for a skeleton to be included in a certain investigation. By matching requirements defined in the study design with measurement data of skeletal inventories that are identified as investigation input in the plan concretising the study design for a specific investigation, the software can automatically identify adequate material. This will help so semi-automate the specimen collection process. In case of a match, the considered material can serve as a specimen, otherwise it is not considered.
I assume that in the current OBI version (v2018-08-27) our use case would look like this:
[image: categoricalvaluespecification-obisolution] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/8103073/46141224-9bfe2b80-c253-11e8-9b80-d736a5192a8c.png
Here, the definition of the categorical value specification 'Complete Glabella Region' would contain the information that measurement data of the type 'Completeness of Glabella' need to have the category label 'complete' in order to establish inclusion in an investigation of type 'FrSexEst'. In the given example, this is not the case but this can only be figured out by reading and understanding the textual definition.
For our ends, we need the categorical value specification to refer to the 'complete' label in order to verify coincidence of value and specification by means of a query. So we would like to do something like this:
[image: categoricalvaluespecification-rdfbonesmismatch] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/8103073/46141898-93a6f000-c255-11e8-9110-33156ea370a0.png
In contrast to 'Complete Glabella Region', the categorical value specification 'Required glabella region' holds its information not in the textual definition annotation but by denoting the required category label. In another example, where the measurement datum satisfies the specification, a specimen is established:
[image: categoricalvaluespecification-rdfbonesmatch] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/8103073/46141996-d36dd780-c255-11e8-8a2b-22c6b338f8f4.png
Our software application should be able to process different types of skeletal inventories and different types of study designs. Our queries, therefore, need to be sufficiently generic. Coding the value specification in a textual annotation would require a specific query for each specification. Questions
- Is this a correct usage of categorical value specifications? Are there alternative solutions?
- Is obo:IAO_0000219 ('denotes') the correct property to use?
We would be grateful for feedback on this problem.
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@bpeters42 Thank you very much for your response.
I am a bit unclear about the 'specifies value of' relationship between the 'Complete glabella region' and and the specific instance 'Completeness of glabella 01'.
'Complete glabella region' is not the area on the bone but an instance of obo:OBI_0001930 ('categorical value specification'). And a value specification is defined as the domain of the 'specifies value of' property. I see that the instance label easily leads to confusion. I wanted a different label than 'Required glabella completeness' to demonstrate that the two specifications express their contents in different ways.
I was also expecting some kind of 'completeness assessment process'.
Well, the completeness assessment process, in this case, would be the specimen collection process ('Specimen collection of glabella 01' or 'Specimen collection of glabella 02, respectively). It assesses whether a skeleton is a suitable specimen or not.
It might be useful to switch to an example that is easier to grasp for people outside of the domain
No problem, similar matching processes can be imagined for many situations. The example that you propose is just as good as ours.
I would love to talk this through on a call.
We are very happy to do this.
I think we would consider the specimen collection process to be limited to procurement of a specimen, and say assigning it an identifier. The only output in the definition is the specimen itself. If there is a part to the process that generates information about the speciment (here: completeness or could also be weight of the specimen etc.), we would consider that a type of 'assay'. So there would be a 'specimen completeness assessment process' (which could be part of the specimen collection process), where the specimen is the input, and the categorical measurement 'Completeness of glabella 01' is the output.
Stopping here, but that would clarify things for me.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:54 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 Thank you very much for your response.
I am a bit unclear about the 'specifies value of' relationship between the 'Complete glabella region' and and the specific instance 'Completeness of glabella 01'.
'Complete glabella region' is not the area on the bone but an instance of obo:OBI_0001930 ('categorical value specification'). And a value specification is defined as the domain of the 'specifies value of' property. I see that the instance label easily leads to confusion. I wanted a different label than 'Required glabella completeness' to demonstrate that the two specifications express their contents in different ways.
I was also expecting some kind of 'completeness assessment process'.
Well, the completeness assessment process, in this case, would be the specimen collection process ('Specimen collection of glabella 01' or 'Specimen collection of glabella 02, respectively). It assesses whether a skeleton is a suitable specimen or not.
It might be useful to switch to an example that is easier to grasp for people outside of the domain
No problem, similar matching processes can be imagined for many situations. The example that you propose is just as good as ours.
I would love to talk this through on a call.
We are very happy to do this.
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I agree that this is a really nice use case and look forward to discussing it on an OBI call! I do have some concerns about the modelling regarding the categorical value specification and use of denotes.
It looks like there are two classes (?) of categorical value specification (‘Complete Glabella Region’ and ‘Required glabella completeness’) which contain categories to specify the value of the ‘Completeness of glabella 01’ such as ‘partlyPresent’ and ‘complete’ (instances of these value specifications). That’s fine but not clear from the figure.
‘denotes’ is between an information content entity and a portion of reality. It’s not clear what ‘complete’ is that is being denoted. Denotes would work if it were denoting an instance of a complete glabella.
In addition: ‘Material specification of investigation B’ is about ‘Skeletal inventory 02’ doesn’t seem right because the specification exists independent of Skeletal inventory 02. I would have made the specification about the specimen collection.
Thanks, Chris
From: bpeters42 notifications@github.com Reply-To: obi-ontology/obi reply@reply.github.com Date: Thursday, September 27, 2018 at 11:12 AM To: obi-ontology/obi obi@noreply.github.com Cc: Subscribed subscribed@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [obi-ontology/obi] Matching categorical measurement data and specifications (#968)
I think we would consider the specimen collection process to be limited to procurement of a specimen, and say assigning it an identifier. The only output in the definition is the specimen itself. If there is a part to the process that generates information about the speciment (here: completeness or could also be weight of the specimen etc.), we would consider that a type of 'assay'. So there would be a 'specimen completeness assessment process' (which could be part of the specimen collection process), where the specimen is the input, and the categorical measurement 'Completeness of glabella 01' is the output.
Stopping here, but that would clarify things for me.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:54 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 Thank you very much for your response.
I am a bit unclear about the 'specifies value of' relationship between the 'Complete glabella region' and and the specific instance 'Completeness of glabella 01'.
'Complete glabella region' is not the area on the bone but an instance of obo:OBI_0001930 ('categorical value specification'). And a value specification is defined as the domain of the 'specifies value of' property. I see that the instance label easily leads to confusion. I wanted a different label than 'Required glabella completeness' to demonstrate that the two specifications express their contents in different ways.
I was also expecting some kind of 'completeness assessment process'.
Well, the completeness assessment process, in this case, would be the specimen collection process ('Specimen collection of glabella 01' or 'Specimen collection of glabella 02, respectively). It assesses whether a skeleton is a suitable specimen or not.
It might be useful to switch to an example that is easier to grasp for people outside of the domain
No problem, similar matching processes can be imagined for many situations. The example that you propose is just as good as ours.
I would love to talk this through on a call.
We are very happy to do this.
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@bpeters42 Thank you for clarifying specimen collection processes for us. This is, indeed, an important issue for our use case as we strive to document processes where specimen are not collected (i.e. the material is rejected). I propose to keep this issue focussed on the comparison of values and their specifications, e.g. by framing it with the blood sample scenario you propose above. I will open another issue about subprocesses of specimen collection processes.
@cstoeckert Thank you for your input.
It looks like there are two classes (?) of categorical value specification (‘Complete Glabella Region’ and ‘Required glabella completeness’) which contain categories to specify the value of the ‘Completeness of glabella 01’ such as ‘partlyPresent’ and ‘complete’ (instances of these value specifications).
No, they are both instances of the class obo:OBI_0001930 ('categorical value specification') - our (self-made) conventions for network graphs represent classes as rounded boxes (here shaded in grey) and instances as boxes with edges, while dotted arrow lines signal rdf:type. The two instances represent alternative solutions to the same problem. 'Complete Glabella Region' (probably a misleading label, cf. above) is a specification analogous to existing ones in the OBI, e.g. tumor grades. 'Required glabella completeness' explicitly references one of the two occurring instances of obo:OBI_0000963 ('categorical label'), 'complete' and 'partlyPresent'. So these are not instances of a value specification class.
‘denotes’ is between an information content entity and a portion of reality. It’s not clear what ‘complete’ is that is being denoted. Denotes would work if it were denoting an instance of a complete glabella.
Yes, I am most uncertain about using obo:IAO_0000219 ('denotes'), especially because of the "some portion of reality" part of its definition. The OBI, in some cases, uses 'denote' to specify non-material things, e.g. 'centrally registered identifier' is restricted as being a subclass of something that denotes some 'centrally registered identifier registry'. The main point of my second question is to find out what property to use.
‘Material specification of investigation B’ is about ‘Skeletal inventory 02’ doesn’t seem right because the specification exists independent of Skeletal inventory 02. I would have made the specification about the specimen collection.
Our investigation plans ('Plan for Investigation A' and 'Plan for Investigation B' in this example) contain specifications of skeletal inventories instead of skeletal elements themselves because we want to compare measurement data they contain with the requirements specified in the study design. I agree that 'Material specification' is a misleading term here, as the specification is actually about skeletal inventories. The reference to skeletal material is only indirect. This is something we should probably change.
I did this up because I'm exploring categorical value specifications in a different way (avoiding 'has category label' and instead pointing directly to eg. quality classes. But this requires some convention, so it will need a critique.
@ddooley Thank you for sketching your alternative approach.
I very much appreciate you pointing out the class obo:OBI_0500026 ('eligibility criterion') and its subclasses obo:OBI_0500027 ('inclusion crierion') and obo:OBI_00028 ('exclusion criterion') which I had not been aware of.
Also, we are happy to consider adopting the obo:PATO_0001444 ('wholeness') concept instead of our own completeness item.
What I do not understand is how you can dispense with the measurement datum instance. Where would the observation 'Completeness of glabella 01' from our 'Skeletal inventory 01' feature in your scheme?
Concerning the complex restrictions of your information content entity 'complete glabella', we have found such specifications difficult to implement in software applications, as most frameworks for application building do not evaluate them properly. As a consequence, for our use case, we prefer more robust solutions.
There's some discussion (e.g. bottom of https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Mt3zb73iGhM6j1pGbP7rGE4CPSKiQBGG_TM9hJcczU ) about the relation between value specifications and datums - that in fact a measurement datum may simply be a type of value specification (my bias). We're having a dev call on monday and I'll see if agreement materializes on that. Discussion on this is also in: https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/issues/945
About "Complex restrictions of your information content entity 'complete glabella', " I wasn't quite sure how to diagram the conjunction - but the idea is simply to express a class called "complete glabella" that says what it is about and what it takes to be complete. But I will have to as you say see how this fits into your observation scheme of skeletal completeness inventory items.
the idea is simply to express a class called "complete glabella" that says what it is about and what it takes to be complete.
OK, I get you. The value specification is coded in restrictions to the class.
Dear cuboideum, I just wanted to check in where you stand with this. The input you provided was exemplary, and I want to make sure that we have given at least somewhat useful input? Is everything clear (I doubt it), or should we schedule a call to go through this in detail?
@bpeters42 Thanks for asking. The input has been very helpful, indeed, and has initiated several issues on our side. It has become clear that the current OBI concept for categorical value specifications does not work for our use case and that we will have to go with our own construct. An open question is still which predicate should define the categorical label referred to by a categorical value specification.
Personally, I am much more uncertain about the spin-off issue on subprocesses of specimen collection processes than about this one.
Of course we are happy to discuss the issue in an OBI call. The question is if this would help the development of the OBI and whether we constitute a type of use case that the OBI should support. You suggested above to come forth with an example (blood samples) that would better appeal to OBI developers. Would you care to draft this example in preparation for a call?
Yes, I strongly believe your experiences will help OBI development. Not necessarily to suddenly make OBI perfect for you, but we would very much like to know the reasons why the OBI value specifications do not work for your use case. That is still an area under development, and it is very possible that we chose a wrong path, and you experience might help correct that. No promises though :)
You have put a substantial effort in describing your perfectly appropriate use case, and in my mind, we should be able to handle it, and if not, I would like to understand where we are currently lacking. And with that I mean both the value specification and the specimen collection.
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:44 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 Thanks for asking. The input has been very helpful, indeed, and has initiated several issues on our side. It has become clear that the current OBI concept for categorical value specifications does not work for our use case and that we will have to go with our own construct. An open question is still which predicate should define the categorical label referred to by a categorical value specification.
Personally, I am much more uncertain about the spin-off issue on subprocesses of specimen collection processes https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/issues/970 than about this one.
Of course we are happy to discuss the issue in an OBI call. The question is if this would help the development of the OBI and whether we constitute a type of use case that the OBI should support. You suggested above https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/issues/968#issuecomment-425110628 to come forth with an example (blood samples) that would better appeal to OBI developers. Would you care to draft this example in preparation for a call?
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I forgot to add to the above: I am chairing the call on 11/19, meaning I get to set the agenda. Would that be a good time for you to join the call (9:00 am Pacific time)?
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 4:41 PM Bjoern Peters bpeters@lji.org wrote:
Yes, I strongly believe your experiences will help OBI development. Not necessarily to suddenly make OBI perfect for you, but we would very much like to know the reasons why the OBI value specifications do not work for your use case. That is still an area under development, and it is very possible that we chose a wrong path, and you experience might help correct that. No promises though :)
You have put a substantial effort in describing your perfectly appropriate use case, and in my mind, we should be able to handle it, and if not, I would like to understand where we are currently lacking. And with that I mean both the value specification and the specimen collection.
- Bjoern
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:44 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 Thanks for asking. The input has been very helpful, indeed, and has initiated several issues on our side. It has become clear that the current OBI concept for categorical value specifications does not work for our use case and that we will have to go with our own construct. An open question is still which predicate should define the categorical label referred to by a categorical value specification.
Personally, I am much more uncertain about the spin-off issue on subprocesses of specimen collection processes https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/issues/970 than about this one.
Of course we are happy to discuss the issue in an OBI call. The question is if this would help the development of the OBI and whether we constitute a type of use case that the OBI should support. You suggested above https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/issues/968#issuecomment-425110628 to come forth with an example (blood samples) that would better appeal to OBI developers. Would you care to draft this example in preparation for a call?
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-- Bjoern Peters Professor La Jolla Institute for Allergy and Immunology 9420 Athena Circle La Jolla, CA 92037, USA Tel: 858/752-6914 Fax: 858/752-6987 http://www.liai.org/pages/faculty-peters
-- Bjoern Peters Professor La Jolla Institute for Allergy and Immunology 9420 Athena Circle La Jolla, CA 92037, USA Tel: 858/752-6914 Fax: 858/752-6987 http://www.liai.org/pages/faculty-peters
@bpeters42 Thank your for suggesting a date for the call. Yes, I can participate on 19 November 2018 at 9:00 Pacific time (17:00 UTC).
Should I provide more clarification of the use case in preparation?
If you can add a few introductory slides on your use case, that would be great. Hopefully you can re-use something you already have. Having you there in person to explain will reduce the need to have detailed slides for background.
I look forward to it!
-Bjoern
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 2:33 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 Thank your for suggesting a date for the call. Yes, I can participate on 19 November 2018 at 9:00 Pacific time (23:00 UTC).
Should I provide more clarification of the use case in preparation?
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@bpeters42 I have prepared a small presentation with some information on the use case background:
2018-11-19-OBICall-Issues#968#970.pdf
It covers both this issue and issue #970 . Please let me know if there is anything else we should provide.
Thank you for this. As before, I am impressed by the thoroughness and quality of your work. It is very helpful to understand the remaining issues, and I am optimistic that we can iron them out. It does seem to me that if OBI doesn't accomodate this, we should modify it, but I think it does.
Best,
Bjoern
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 4:00 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
@bpeters42 https://github.com/bpeters42 I have prepared a small presentation with some information on the use case background:
2018-11-19-OBICall-Issues#968#970.pdf https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/files/2568360/2018-11-19-OBICall-Issues_.968_.970.pdf
It covers both this issue and issue #970 https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/issues/970 . Please let me know if there is anything else we should provide.
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-- Bjoern Peters Professor La Jolla Institute for Allergy and Immunology 9420 Athena Circle La Jolla, CA 92037, USA Tel: 858/752-6914 Fax: 858/752-6987 http://www.liai.org/pages/faculty-peters
I believe we would prefer to define parts of the 'study design' over parts of the 'plan'.
I am not quite sure if I get you right, here. In our approach, the study design defines a set of methods and their requirements. The "plan" refers to a specific investigation implementing the design. Its specifications exclusively refer to the requirements of this specific investigation, e.g. which material is to be investigated.
So "FrSexEst" is a study design involving an assessment of the supra-orbital ridge which requires this region to be observable.
"Investigation A" is an investigation by which a group of scientists intends to assess the biological sex of an individual from its skeletal remains ("Skeleton 1").
Which part of the plan specifications would you like to see being moved to the study design?
I am getting a bit confused, especially with the 'specifies value of' - which came up as a problem in last weeks call and seems to not have been clearly defined.
Issue #982 shows that there seems to be, indeed, uncertainty about the use of specifies value of
(obo:OBI_0001927). Personally, I do not understand it to be the inverse property of has value specification
(obo:OBI_0ß001938) but I had intuitively adopted the proposition (reported from the OBI call on 05 November 2018) that
specifies value of
could be used to tie a value specification to the class that represents the quality or phenomenon that the value specification is indirectly/informally about.
Of course, we will follow the usage intended by the OBI developers.
Regarding study design vs. plan: I think the distinction you make is between a more general study design (e.g. collecting data from skeletons that are complete and dating them) vs. a more specific one (e.g. collecting data from skeletons in the US collection #123 that are complete and dating them). We would consider these differences in specificity to be subclasses of study design. The very same study design can be re-used at different sites, by different people to carry out an investigation. Or a study design can be part of a grant proposal that is never executed.
When we talk about 'plan' in OBI, we refer to what is in a person's head when he is about to act. That includes the part of the study design he is about to carry out, but will have more specifics, such as which instruments he is planning to use based on their availability that day. And it allows us to tie the actual process happening (e.g. a specimen completeness assessment being carried out) to the person doing it (who has the plan in his head) and the study design (which exists in the persons head but also on paper etc).
Hope this makes sense...
Bjoern
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:00 AM cuboideum notifications@github.com wrote:
I believe we would prefer to define parts of the 'study design' over parts of the 'plan'.
I am not quite sure if I get you right, here. In our approach, the study design defines a set of methods and their requirements. The "plan" refers to a specific investigation implementing the design. Its specifications exclusively refer to the requirements of this specific investigation, e.g. which material is to be investigated.
So "FrSexEst" is a study design involving an assessment of the supra-orbital ridge which requires this region to be observable. "Investigation A" is an investigation by which a group of scientists intends to assess the biological sex of an individual from its skeletal remains ("Skeleton 1").
Which part of the plan specifications would you like to see being moved to the study design?
I am getting a bit confused, especially with the 'specifies value of' - which came up as a problem in last weeks call and seems to not have been clearly defined.
Issue #982 https://github.com/obi-ontology/obi/issues/982 shows that there seems to be, indeed, uncertainty about the use of specifies value of (obo:OBI_0001927). Personally, I do not understand it to be the inverse property of has value specification (obo:OBI_0ß001938) but I had intuitively adopted the proposition (reported from the OBI call on 05 November 2018) that
specifies value of could be used to tie a value specification to the class that represents the quality or phenomenon that the value specification is indirectly/informally about.
Of course, we will follow the usage intended by the OBI developers.
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-- Bjoern Peters Professor La Jolla Institute for Allergy and Immunology 9420 Athena Circle La Jolla, CA 92037, USA Tel: 858/752-6914 Fax: 858/752-6987 http://www.liai.org/pages/faculty-peters
This issue was discussed during the OBI call on 19 November 2018. There seem to be several points where our use case misinterprets OBI elements:
I have opened issues on our side for these three points. But I will not be able to work on them before Summer 2019 as I am busy with another project right now. So it will take some time for me to come up with alternative solutions.
Other call participants volunteered to contribute a solution approach from their perspective and look for similar existing use cases. Thanks again to everyone at the call to deal with our problems.
The new OBI data model will resolve this so closing for now.
@jamesaoverton has encouraged us to contribute a use case involving categorical data specifications.
Use Case
We are implementing the OBI in a software supporting biological anthropologists with the documentation of their osteological studies on human skeletons from archaeological or forensic backgrounds. Completeness and preservation of these skeletons are recorded in 'skeletal inventories' which we model as data sets. Study designs of various types of investigations formulate requirements (plan specifications) for data items in these datasets that need to be met for a skeleton to be included in a certain investigation. By matching requirements defined in the study design with measurement data of skeletal inventories that are identified as investigation input in the plan concretising the study design for a specific investigation, the software can automatically identify adequate material. This will help so semi-automate the specimen collection process. In case of a match, the considered material can serve as a specimen, otherwise it is not considered.
I assume that in the current OBI version (v2018-08-27) our use case would look like this:
Here, the definition of the categorical value specification 'Complete Glabella Region' would contain the information that measurement data of the type 'Completeness of Glabella' need to have the category label 'complete' in order to establish inclusion in an investigation of type 'FrSexEst'. In the given example, this is not the case but this can only be figured out by reading and understanding the textual definition.
For our ends, we need the categorical value specification to refer to the 'complete' label in order to verify coincidence of value and specification by means of a query. So we would like to do something like this:
In contrast to 'Complete Glabella Region', the categorical value specification 'Required glabella region' holds its information not in the textual definition annotation but by denoting the required category label. In another example, where the measurement datum satisfies the specification, a specimen is established:
Our software application should be able to process different types of skeletal inventories and different types of study designs. Our queries, therefore, need to be sufficiently generic. Coding the value specification in a textual annotation would require a specific query for each specification.
Questions
We would be grateful for feedback on this problem.