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I would welcome the move to either
Pattern 2 is used frequently in Uberon, we call them taxon-GCIs or
evolutionary-variable-GCIs:
https://github.com/obophenotype/uberon/wiki/Evolutionary-variability-GCIs
Pattern 2 (GCIs) is stronger than pattern 1 (individuals), and in many cases it
can be too strong, as the characteristics of the class may not perfectly
stratify with species (even canonical members of).
For markers in CL, I feel the prototype/individuals approach (proposal 1) is
the most appropriate.
Original comment by cmung...@gmail.com
on 15 Jul 2014 at 6:43
I think we need to better gauge the intent of recording marker lists. Within a
single species, is inheritance of these properties the expectation? If so, it
really needs to be managed & have error checking in place - i.e. we should use
GCIs or multiple equivalence axioms per term. This also has the advantage of
allowing straightforward classification of individuals characterised via marker
expression. If not, we should use the prototype approach.
Having said that - I suspect that mapping between marker-based definitions and
minimal commitment definitions will never be perfect. The prototype base
system is potentially safer in cases of divergence.
Original comment by dosu...@gmail.com
on 16 Jul 2014 at 8:17
From correspondence about with Holden Maecker, going into some detail about his
paper: Standardizing immunophenotyping for the Human Immunology Project.
2,5,6,7 are relevant to this issue.
--
Based on the conversation we just had with Holden, I'm going forward with the
following hypotheses (until proven otherwise)
1. Each node with a cell type name (not solely named by markers/ also has a
label that is marker only) in the diagram there is a set S of CL cell types
such that one of the set is a parent P to all the others, AND, a large majority
of the cells (say 85-100% as a straw man) that are identified using the
markers shown in the diagram should properly be understood to be of type P.
2. I will additionally be true that for each protein used to discriminate a
population in the assay, or stated to be a necessary membrane protein by the CL
will be present at the level described in a large majority of cells of type P
3. Not all protein levels used to discriminate populations in the assay should
be listed in necessary condition in the corresponding CL type, since some are
known to be known as proxies only.
4. In the T-cell assay, the bottom layer "activated" CD38+ HLA-DR- should be
understood to be a distinct subtype of each of the four types of cell in the
layer above.
---
In addition, I have three other hypotheses that may be harder to swallow, but
which I can also defend:
5. Cell Universals (called types elsewhere in this note) should be defined
primarily (maybe exclusively) by function, and developmentally, in the ideal
case.
6. Protein membrane levels should only used in necessary conditions when
defining cell types when the level of the protein is essential for the cell to
have the defining characteristics in (5)
7. All other marker information, including marker sets that together can be
used to identify populations of cells that are mostly of a single type (in the
sense of (1) above) should be recorded as part of assay representations. In
particular the CL should stop using combinations of solely protein levels as
necessary and sufficient conditions to be a cell type. In most cases even
adding general parent type to the N&S conditions should be considered
dangerous.
None of the above yet considers a question we have previously discussed, namely
question of how or whether to discriminate as universals cell that are said to
have states such as "active".
Original comment by alanruttenberg@gmail.com
on 8 Sep 2014 at 6:58
Here are some questions about the note in the previous comment, from Melanie
Courtot, and my response to them.
Re: Point 1)
[MC]
I find the formulation of the above statement confusing.
Let's consider the "Naive CD8+ T cell" (top right in the diagram): this is a
node with a cell type name. What is the corresponding set S in CL? Which in
this set is a parent to all the others?
Same question with the "T cells" node.
[AR]
For Naive CD8+ T cell I am guessing it would be be naive thymus-derived
CD8-positive, alpha-beta T cell
For the T cells node it would be the set t cell and all its subclasses.
The formulation is based on my discussion with Holden and a several of his
assertions (or my best understandings of them) -
1) that it was the intention, in the design of the assays, that the set of
markers for named cell types were sufficient to discriminate the named cell
type from currently known other cell types, where cell type here means
characterized or known-to-be-interesting cell populations and,
2) That the choices for the assay were constrained - that only surface markers
could be used, and that there could be at most 8 markers in each assay. So
there are known trade offs in that the discriminating markers are known to not
necessarily be definitional (e.g. IIRC, foxp3 expression is definitional for
t-reg cells, but not accessible as a surface marker, or IL17 for Th17 cells,
that CCR7 is a better marker than CD62L (but perhaps not perfect) which was
sometimes used instead in assays intending to discriminate the same
cells) and
3) That there is an assumption that other markers associated with cell types
are present, but not verification in these assays. In the once case we
discussed, CCR7+ for T-reg cells, he had some data that suggested 85-100% of
the cells in the population also had CCR7 when tested (the assay does not check
CCR7 status). Note that the definition of T-reg cells in CL includes CCR7+.
So the purposes of these assays is to isolate a distinct cell type
(hypothesized to have some shared functional characteristic) with the
understanding that the population will not necessarily have all or only the
cells of the type targeted.
The condition that there be a set in CL, but that there be a single superclass
in the set for all of them, is to capture the idea that there is a single type,
but with an additional assumption - that as we learn more about the population
we may further discriminate subtypes.
Re: Point 2)
[MC]
I think it is expected/desired that the proteins used to discriminate
populations are those that are declared as necessary in CL. I suspect the
"large majority of cells of type P" comes from the fact that we can expect that
some of the cells of type P will have lost their marker, or it won't be exposed
on the membrane, or something similar?
[AR]
Well, my investigation was aimed at trying to understand what is and should be
in the CL and in the representation of these assays, and I think that the
expectation you identify should be disavowed. Holden was clear that some of the
markers were best estimates of how to identify a population mostly of a given
type, but that because there are compromises that may not be achieved. So no,
my understanding is not that the assumption is that they will have lost their
marker or it won't be expressed on the surface but rather that the assay
attempts to isolate a highly enriched population of the type with the tools at
hand, but those tools (these markers) may not be hold in all cases.
Since there is a viable alternative to recording the fib as true (by elevating
the marker set to N&S) the CL should take the more conservative approach. It
would be even more conservative, and perhaps justifiable, to go the further
step and weaken thinks so that the markers aren't even necessary conditions, in
some cases.
Re: Point 3)
[MC]
Do you have an example? I *think* I understand, but a specific case would help.
[AR]
This is a consequence of the purpose of the assay. The the markers are only
known to isolate a highly enriched population of the type. The conditions for a
marker to be necessary and sufficient is that the cells with the presence of
the combination are all and only the cells of the given type. That's a
different condition.
As an example consider the discussions of the choices of which markers to use
in the assay - CCR7/CD62L or CD45RA+/- vs CD45R0-/+ . Assays that intended to
find populations of target cell types have uses one or the other of these.
There are ongoing scientific arguments as to which is better, although it seems
most would agree that the isolated population satisfies the highly enriched
criterion. To say that either is definitional would be premature at this point,
AFAIK.
Re: Point 4)
[MC]
Wouldn't that be equivalent to saying (for example for the activated CD8+T
cells) that they are CD3+CD8+CD38+HLA-DR+? Being subtypes, they are CCR7 + or -
and CD45RA+ or- as well, so we can ignore those markers in trying to identify
them.
No, not according to Holden (please correct me if I was wrong). The intended
sense of the diagram was that each of the 4 subtypes - naive, central memory,
effector and effector memory, could have (interesting) subtypes that were
activated. The diagram is ambiguous so the only way to know this is to have
asked.
Re: Point 5)
[MC]
I believe Richard (who I am cc'ing here) was advocating in that direction as
well, but mentioned that this was very hard to achieve.
[AR]
That I can believe. However I think it is good to have a clear compass and
policy about what we are trying to achieve as it helps us make representation
decisions and to help decide in various case which of alternative options to
choose. It also defined how to shape the CL as we learn more about the cell
types. For example, my assessment that these are the definitional criteria
informs my proposal on the role of surface markers in CL definitions.
Re: Point 6)
[MC]
I am not sure this is true. Couldn't some cells have some sort of markers that
are not associated with a known function and yet are discriminating for that
specific population? See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD133
[AR]
They could, although even in the article you cite CD133 is suggested to be
present on both cancer stem cells as well as classes of non-pathological cell
types. So perhaps it doesn't discriminate as well as one would hope.
While it is possible that such accidental correlations exist, my sense is that
in many cases the functional/developmental characterization would win over the
marker if there was a disagreement. If we follow (6) a disagreement would be
recognized only if we found that the marker wasn't necessary for the defining
function. That is a more solid way to resolve a conflict.
Re: Point 7)
[MC]
It would be helpful if you could expand on this. Why only use assay
representations? Why are the combination of presence /absence of protein levels
as N&S conditions an issue? I'm not disagreeing, but I'd like a bit more
justification than a statement.
[AR]
Because we try to say only true things in ontologies, and it appears that the
marker combinations can be '85% true' to be acceptable as discriminators. The
square quotes around '85% true' are to distinguish it as different from true.
Re: the question of how or whether to discriminate as universals cell that are
said to have states such as "active"
[MC]
Wouldn't those "activated" cells have some sort of change (in terms of markers
or else) making them capable of having a specific function for example? There
has to be a response to the external stimulus for the cell to be "activated"
(see also http://www.ebi.ac.uk/QuickGO/GTerm?id=GO:0001775). If you state in
the above that cell types are defined by their function, then by the same
reasoning shouldn't they indeed be considered as universals?
[AR]
Maybe. There are other considerations such as what, if anything, is always true
of a cell type. The discussion is related to conversations in the BFO2 thread
about whether universals are rigid in some sense and that their change is by
change in qualities rather than change in type (but classes of cells defined in
part by qualities are certainly fine). It is like the (open) question of
whether professor is a universals, or only professor role.
As a practical consideration it impacts our expectations of what happens to
cell particulars as we follow them around. Do they change type from time to
time, or are changes in type only expected in the cells that derive from
existing cells by, e.g. merger or division.
Original comment by alanruttenberg@gmail.com
on 8 Sep 2014 at 7:09
HI
one of the main characteristics of the immune cell is their ability to respond
to external stimuli and shape them self to the microenvironment. Recycling
their receptor in response of external stimuli, is a common thing, this doesn't
make the cell different type. But it can modify or add some functions of the
cell. So for immune cell not is all is always true all the time. I think this
is something that need a discussion.
Original comment by AnnaM.Ma...@gmail.com
on 8 Sep 2014 at 8:48
"5. Cell Universals (called types elsewhere in this note) should be defined
primarily (maybe exclusively) by function, and developmentally, in the ideal
case. "
Odd suggestion - structural properties are essential to defining cell types in
very many cases.
Original comment by dosu...@gmail.com
on 21 Oct 2014 at 4:43
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Original issue reported on code.google.com by
dosu...@gmail.com
on 15 Jul 2014 at 6:04