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ohbendy / Phake-Ramayana

The Phake Ramayana font is a traditional design based on manuscript forms. It supports Tai Phake, Tai Aiton, Tai Khamyang, Tai Turung and Tai Khamti languages.
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Alternate form of HA #9

Closed ohbendy closed 3 years ago

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

This stacked shape shows up fairly regularly in the manuscripts from Kensan, I don't know what it is:

Screenshot 2021-05-24 at 11 03 18 Screenshot 2021-05-24 at 10 53 50 Screenshot 2021-05-24 at 10 59 44 Screenshot 2021-05-24 at 11 00 09

StephenMorey commented 3 years ago

I also don't know what this is. I assume that it is a combination of more than one word. But I don't know. I hope Kensan can give advice.

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

This is letter “ha”. My grandfather often makes curve in some letters like ha, aa vowel.

StephenMorey commented 3 years ago

So, is that last word the word hum? image

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Interesting! The curl below did make me wonder if it could be HA, but the top part here has the stroke exiting the dot at the top left rather than the bottom right.

I've just checked again and found both forms used together, which implies some sort of contrast. See the beginning and ending of this line, for example:

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 08 05 08

Another example, this time the HA on the first line differs from the HA on the second and final lines:

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 08 05 54

What is going on here?

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

@StephenMorey It is written "haü man" (let him).

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Both are haa. The first one is a variant which I have found only in my grandfather's manuscripts. Perhaps his style of writing. There is also a variant of pha, last pic, first line, 6th word (written as phing).

StephenMorey commented 3 years ago

Yes, now I can see. So is the word on the top of this photo also haü an? image In other words the form that Ben is talking about is haü which would be AA69 + 105E +A9E5

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Yes, this is also haü an.

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Ok, it sounds like there's no semantic difference between the two forms of HA. (I wondered if one might be a low tone HA and the other a high tone HA, but that doesn't really fit the orthography.)

If you like the idea, I could include the 'curly' version of HA as a stylistic alternate in the font, so users can choose their preferred form?

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Yes, I would like to have this curly version of HA. Because there are more manuscripts where I have found this character. Many thanks.

StephenMorey commented 3 years ago

I think no semantic difference. But the question of which form should be in the font is one for Kensan to give opinion on!

StephenMorey commented 3 years ago

I am happy with Kensan's suggestion

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Here are more examples of curly version of HA. These might be helpful for you. (manuscript named Petang kanan)

Petang 1 Petang 2

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Yes, I would like to have this curly version of HA. Because there are more manuscripts where I have found this character. Many thanks.

So then I'll put the curly version as the default and the plain one as an alternate :-)

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Wow, in those last images it really starts to turn into its own shape:

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 08 46 09 Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 08 46 24 Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 08 46 30

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Yes, at first it was really difficult for me to recognize these alternative forms.

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Is it doubled လွႝ with two circles below?

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 09 04 23

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Yes, this is loi-loi with two circles. But I don't know why there are two circles.

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

In the same page, after one line, you will find Burmese NA shaped numeral 2.

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Yes, this is loi-loi with two circles. But I don't know why there are two circles.

It looks as though text engines don't currently allow the sequence 103D 103D (two circles below), but I have now put a workaround in the font just in case people want to type it twice.

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 09 23 30

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

I find it interesting they're using both forms of HA here too. Do you think the scribe has not decided which form to use, or that they like to mix forms for aesthetic reasons?

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 09 30 54 Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 09 33 05

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

I think it could be because of aesthetic reasons. This alternative HA appears only in old Tai script having large dots which is not used for writing in daily life. While using Tai script with smaller dots my grandfather have used only the regular HA..

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Just to confirm, a font with small dots would use the plain version of HA (the left version in these last two images)?

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Yes, right

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

There is also a variant of pha, last pic, first line, 6th word (written as phing).

Thank you, I hadn't spotted that!

EDIT: We currently have this form of PHA in the font, encoded at 1078 ၸ (which is actually Shan letter CA).

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 10 20 48

In the latest images we find this shape:

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 10 12 55 Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 10 13 09

The forms suggested in the resources by Martin/Stephen show these shapes: Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 10 18 10

I don't know which shape we should choose.

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

This letter also shows up, could it also be PHA?

Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 10 06 50 Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 10 07 05

ChowKensan commented 3 years ago

Yes, these are all PHA. It appears frequently in other manuscripts too that I have sent you earlier.

StephenMorey commented 3 years ago

PHA does have alternate forms, but yes, Kensan is correct.

StephenMorey commented 3 years ago

So many comments in the last two hours! I've been giving a lecture to a group in Delhi (by Zoom of course) and couldn't not check until now. The loi loi with double o is very special, but I think rare

ohbendy commented 3 years ago

Closing this thread for now. Curly HA is now default in the font and the plain version is an alternate.