about level 15.Woodly Rhyme

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I don´t know if this is really an Issue, but it has changed a lot compared to 
the original version so I want to know.

In the 15th stage: Woodly Rhyme, you have some empty floor already excavated; 
There are two enemy keepers and a little heroes fortress in the middle with 
neutral ghosts, neutral skeletons, two treasure rooms and tons of secret items 
guarded by doors and lots of powerful traps.

In the original version (I played this level three times and this always 
happen); at 20-30 minutes (Perhaps more), a Lord of the land and some samurais 
(level 10) attacks the blue keeper.

When the heroes destroy the heart, a message appear saying something like 
"seems that a rival keeper has been destroyed".

Then he goes over the green keeper but the Lord of the land dies there.

When I am near over the little heroes fortress and claiming the floor, some 
waves of heroes appear; I don´t remember well, but I remember two of three 
waves and finally a lord of the land (with others heroes) going after me.

Then, normally I go all the way against the green Keeper or I use the 
"armageddon" spell and thus destroy all his creatures.

Now, With the new version (and night build KeeperFX r872 patch, dated 
2013.11.11) the level 10 heroes attack the green keeper first (instead the blue 
one); when he is destroyed a message appear saying something like "an enemy 
keeper is weak, destroy him" (blue keeper didn´t reach max creatures, but me 
neither).

No more heores spawned (as far as I know, at least no hero attacks me even when 
I conquer the fortress) 

Lord of the land Fights blue keeper and died (killing some creatures in the 
process), and then I go against the Keeper with my 28 vs his 14 creatures and 
win easily.

I don´t know if this is a issue or is deliberate, but in my opinion I prefer 
the first version, because you have to fight heroes if you invade their 
fortress (buying time for the green Keeper) and then you need to destroy the 
green keeper (as it is further away from you he has more time to grow a little 
his forces) in his dominion or use armageddon and kill him.

With this version I just fight once, and versus an enemy too weak.

Original issue reported on code.google.com by tempri2...@gmail.com on 11 Nov 2013 at 4:07

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Actually, it's not that repetitive.

On this level, both blue and green keeper start with similar conditions - 4 
sides of gems and similar amount of gold, portal and heart.

Knight is on the level from start, waiting in the hero fortress.

So which player is defeated first, depends on which player will dig to the 
water first. And this is random - blue player may dig to it if he decides to 
start "attack plan", and green player may dig to it with "attack plan" and with 
"dig for far gold".

The decisions computer players will make are a bit random, and are also 
dependent of the kind of creatures they'll get (which is also random).

Blue player is closer to the water, so he has bigger chances of digging there 
by mistake when placing rooms. Green one may decide to dig there if he's low on 
gold - which is unlikely, but not impossible.

In summary - I'm not sure if we should re-design this level in any way.

Original comment by mefistotelis on 11 Nov 2013 at 7:08

• Changed state: NeedInfo
• Added labels: Component-Maps

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I see; so they can dig in "random-time"; in one play the blue keeper dig near 
water at 10 minutes and in other play he will not do it until 50 min, just 
random. Right?

I think The problem is how the Lord can win the level by himself; I barely had 
to fight to win the level.
<-- Maybe I just had bad luck this time.

What about those heroes who attacked me in the original? I remember like 3 or 4 
fairys (level 4 I think) going after me in the first wave; and see the "rocks 
falling" and appearing some more heroes in the fortress.

If I can do a suggestion; Do the keepers wait a little more time before start 
digging so when the green keeper start doing it, he is attacked and destroyed 
by the heroes; then the other keeper can dig and attract them being strong 
enough to repel the attack.

Then you can take advantage of the situation and attack the blue keeper with 
their forces slightly weakened (but not as much as fight against 14 low level 
creatures).

<-- Maybe this can happen randomly.

Or maybe give the heroes more forces to eliminate both keepers and then you 
must face the remaining level 10 heroes; the game gives you the time to create 
your army meanwhile the heroes are destroying both keepers; so seem that the 
heroes are on a crusade to eliminate all the guardians of the land (successful 
until they fight you).

Just a pair of ideas; in any case, thanks for the reply, and good job with 
KeeperFx.

Original comment by tempri2...@gmail.com on 11 Nov 2013 at 10:14

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I've played this level a few times by now, and even without the area damage, 
this level plays itself. Both keepers quickly dig towards the center, both die, 
leaving you with only a few heroes.

Once you dig to water, 1-3 damaged heroes will walk into your dungeon, die, and 
you have conquered the realm. This really needs a balance tweak. Either stop 
the computer players from digging towards the water so soon in the game, or 
stop the heroes from attacking straight away, or give the computer players a 
boost in power by starting them off with a few creatures and a bit of dungeon.

Right now this is a lost level.

Original comment by Loobinex on 19 Jun 2014 at 11:22

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Since this is the level where Armageddon makes it's first appearance, the final 
battle should be epic. There are 2 ways to fix this:

1. Both keepers should not dig outside their dungeon which has ample space and 
gems.
2. The 3 heroes could be spawned via hero gate, the action point being around 
the perimeter of the player's dungeon. This would prevent them from killing 
hasty enemy keepers.

Original comment by gaschamberblues on 26 Jun 2014 at 7:41

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If you look at the script, the point of this level is for the heroes to attack 
and almost kill one of the keepers: There are text messages in the script 
mentioning the near defeat of a keeper to you, and urging you to attack the 
weakened one.

What needs to change, is that the Keeper should win, not lose to the heroes. 
And certainly the heroes should not kill both Keepers. So there are a few other 
alternatives:

1. Make the heroes weaker
2. Make the keepers dig outside their dungeon later, when they are stronger
3. Give the keepers a head start(some rooms or creatures) so they are stronger 
when they dig out.

I would prefer option 2, a change in AI.
For myself I have edited the level and given the keepers some rooms and 2 
spiders to start out with, and turned imprisonment on. It now plays out ok, as 
the samurai are easily frozen.

Original comment by Loobinex on 26 Jun 2014 at 10:24

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That sounds about right especially since both keepers have a creature limit of 
40 each. That would be a difficult battle at the end.

I agree that 2 is a good option. The blue keeper would dig into my dungeon 
about 15 minutes into the game in 3/4 tries which is way too early. One keeper 
should do this early and die while the other should turtle until later on.

Original comment by gaschamberblues on 27 Jun 2014 at 12:13

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I think I did rebalanced the heroes on the map in 0.4.5, but I'm not entirely 
sure.. will check dates on map files.

Making heroes dig later might be a bit troublesome. We may reconfigure the gold 
digging to make it activate later, but computer players may still decide to 
build a room on the edge of water.

The question is, how long should the computer player wait exactly?
(best answer would be in game turns - this is how the game counts time)

Original comment by mefistotelis on 27 Jun 2014 at 7:55

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I don't think building a room near water is something to worry about. The 
dungeon hearths are quite far from the waters edge, by the time their dungeon 
is big enough to breach water they should be strong enough to defeat the 3 
strong heroes.

I've played this level quite a few times to see the behavior, and every time 
the problem was the keepers trying to dig to the gold on the other side of the 
water while they still only low level creatures.

How long should the CP wait? Until he is strong enough to beat the heroes,... I 
don't know when that is, but if you tell me which parameter to tweak I'm happy 
to run simulations until I get a proper value.

Original comment by Loobinex on 27 Jun 2014 at 8:53

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One interesting observation is that the blue keeper tries to dig to where the 
gold to the west of your heart *was*. i.e. he still digs there when you've 
already mined and stored all of it as if expecting to find something unless you 
reinforce the walls. This shouldn't be the case, should it? This happened 3/4 
times, the 4th was when I reinforced all walls.

How about they wait until creature limit (40) has been reached?

Original comment by gaschamberblues on 27 Jun 2014 at 3:05