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open-watcom / open-watcom-v2

Open Watcom V2.0 - Source code repository, Wiki, Latest Binary build, Archived builds including all installers for download.
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Needed: Umbrella LISTSERV-type email list covering all news for all forks of OW #116

Closed ideafarm closed 9 years ago

ideafarm commented 9 years ago

I am deeply interested in monitoring, encouraging, and facilitating OW development and deployment. There is currently AFAIK no efficient way to do any of this. In particular, the "official" OW web site does great harm because it is where 99% of new searchers land, and it proclaims that OW is dead.

(This is the message between the lines. The Official OW web site says that (1) it is the official web site, that (2) an active community of developers and users can be found there, and (3) new releases are uploaded regularly. But within 45 seconds of reading that happy news, the new visitor discovers that (A) it is a ghost town, and (B) the latest release was uploaded years ago. Two plus two equals: OW is dead.)

An inflow of hopeful potential users and developers is critically important. Such people must not be obstructed from encountering those who have already found each other and are enthusiastically working together and helping each other use the latest OR greatest OW.

The official OW web site, by choking off this inflow of new people, is the greatest friend of those organizations that would like to see OW go away because it is a competitive threat.

IMO, two things need to be done, and done quickly: First, the OW community needs a newspaper / newsletter / email server so that interested persons can find the community, make contact with people in it, see what active forks exist, and easily get involved. Second, the OW community needs to ask that the "official" web site needs to either be taken down or updated so that people who visit there don't get the "OW is dead" message.

WDYT?

ideafarm commented 9 years ago

I won't be offended if someone deletes this comment or closes this issue. AFAIK, it is appropriate to converse here about the issue that I've raised and the actions that I've proposed. Should I interpret the lack of response as a unanimous opinion that (1) the OW community, if indeed any such thing exists, should be invisible and that (2) nothing needs to be done about the "official" OW website because it is not doing any harm?

jmalak commented 9 years ago

I don't thing anybody will comment this, because we are independent group. You should open this discussion on official OW site, because all things are related to official OW. Personally I don't want discuss anything not related to our group. Anyway official OW has its own maintainer, which is responsible for official OW. You can contact him.

pchapin commented 9 years ago

Actions speak louder than words. As far as I know this fork is much more active than the "official" version of Open Watcom thanks in large measure to Jiri's hard work. As a result other contributors have begun to collect around this fork which only serves to make it more active yet. It's a positive feedback loop. Since the action is here, this is where the action is. Nothing more need be done.

I agree that some kind of email list or forum for this community might be nice. Using GitHub for that purpose is okay, I think, but not 100% ideal. In any case I'd rather spend my limited time actually contributing code than searching for an alternative forum.

ideafarm commented 9 years ago

Please consider opening, and keeping open, a chat thread here so that people interested in OW can get to know one another and converse about topics related to OW that are not related to particular code changes or bugs. Alternatively, create it in some neutral other location. (I would prefer to see it created here, because, as you said, actions speak louder than words, and the action is right here.)

I'm not the right person to do that. It should be you or Jiri. Whoever creates the chat thread does not need to be active within it. Just create a place where people can make human contact.

Feel free to close this "issue" whenever you want to. I am very excited about what you all are doing and agree that code contributions are more valuable than talk. Best regards.

staalmannen commented 9 years ago

I tried to start a subreddit as an alternative user forum. I have seen this working quite well for some projects...

The problem is naturally to make people aware of the most preferred place of interaction. Den 2 nov 2014 19:29 skrev "ideafarm" notifications@github.com:

Please consider opening, and keeping open, a chat thread here so that people interested in OW can get to know one another and converse about topics related to OW that are not related to particular code changes or bugs. Alternatively, create it in some neutral other location. (I would prefer to see it created here, because, as you said, actions speak louder than words, and the action is right here.)

I'm not the right person to do that. It should be you or Jiri. Whoever creates the chat thread does not need to be active within it. Just create a place where people can make human contact.

Feel free to close this "issue" whenever you want to. I am very excited about what you all are doing and agree that code contributions are more valuable than talk. Best regards.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/open-watcom/open-watcom-v2/issues/116#issuecomment-61417532 .

ideafarm commented 9 years ago

How many of us are there? If it's only a handful, then it should just be done right here, alongside where the action is. The people associated with the official OW site should be welcomed. Every single person who is seriously interested is valuable; no one should be lost over ego issues or divisions.

If someone forks this repository and all of the action moves, then the conversation forum should move with it. The "forum" can simply be a single conversation thread. It can be THIS thread. Just leave it open and let it take whatever course it will take. Let this thread be where we can talk to each other. A place like that is needed. Those who don't need it and just want to contribute code changes don't have to participate.

NOTICE: This is not a private or confidential conversation. All email to and from this address resides in the public record and is subject to publication. The general business of IdeaFarm (tm) Operations is conducted transparently. Pseudo-confidential communication is possible but only by

prior arrangement, and the request itself remains in the public record.

18 U.S.C. 241: "If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person... in the free exercise... of any right... [t]hey shall be fined... or imprisoned not more than ten years, ... and... if such acts include kidnapping..., they shall be fined... or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death."

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Jens Staal notifications@github.com wrote:

I tried to start a subreddit as an alternative user forum. I have seen this working quite well for some projects...

The problem is naturally to make people aware of the most preferred place of interaction. Den 2 nov 2014 19:29 skrev "ideafarm" notifications@github.com:

Please consider opening, and keeping open, a chat thread here so that people interested in OW can get to know one another and converse about topics related to OW that are not related to particular code changes or bugs. Alternatively, create it in some neutral other location. (I would prefer to see it created here, because, as you said, actions speak louder than words, and the action is right here.)

I'm not the right person to do that. It should be you or Jiri. Whoever creates the chat thread does not need to be active within it. Just create a place where people can make human contact.

Feel free to close this "issue" whenever you want to. I am very excited about what you all are doing and agree that code contributions are more valuable than talk. Best regards.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub < https://github.com/open-watcom/open-watcom-v2/issues/116#issuecomment-61417532>

.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/open-watcom/open-watcom-v2/issues/116#issuecomment-61418351 .

ideafarm commented 9 years ago

There might be some good reasons to NOT provide the forum here. The more that I think about it, the more I think that (1) a forum for conversation is needed and (2) it should NOT be here and (3) it should be easy to find from here, with a link provided.

NOTICE: This is not a private or confidential conversation. All email to and from this address resides in the public record and is subject to publication. The general business of IdeaFarm (tm) Operations is conducted transparently. Pseudo-confidential communication is possible but only by

prior arrangement, and the request itself remains in the public record.

18 U.S.C. 241: "If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person... in the free exercise... of any right... [t]hey shall be fined... or imprisoned not more than ten years, ... and... if such acts include kidnapping..., they shall be fined... or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death."

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Jens Staal notifications@github.com wrote:

I tried to start a subreddit as an alternative user forum. I have seen this working quite well for some projects...

The problem is naturally to make people aware of the most preferred place of interaction. Den 2 nov 2014 19:29 skrev "ideafarm" notifications@github.com:

Please consider opening, and keeping open, a chat thread here so that people interested in OW can get to know one another and converse about topics related to OW that are not related to particular code changes or bugs. Alternatively, create it in some neutral other location. (I would prefer to see it created here, because, as you said, actions speak louder than words, and the action is right here.)

I'm not the right person to do that. It should be you or Jiri. Whoever creates the chat thread does not need to be active within it. Just create a place where people can make human contact.

Feel free to close this "issue" whenever you want to. I am very excited about what you all are doing and agree that code contributions are more valuable than talk. Best regards.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub < https://github.com/open-watcom/open-watcom-v2/issues/116#issuecomment-61417532>

.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/open-watcom/open-watcom-v2/issues/116#issuecomment-61418351 .

revelator commented 9 years ago

A forum site like the one darkmod uses with links to the github pages seem to work just fine :) but thats just one option, there might be many more. For one expand the github page with a wiki detailing build instructions, pitfalls with different compilers (like the intel compiler i use), tips and tricks to use open watcom as your prefered compiler etc. Im also drumming for more developers to chime in on several sites. Quite a lot of game devs still use it for retro games like quake, building real dos versions or winquake versions with it, and they know a thing or two about compilers also.

pchapin commented 9 years ago

Adding material to the Wiki on GitHub sounds like a good idea.

Of course there are the Open Watcom newsgroups. They have been around for years and are still active. Some discussion about this fork has taken place there. Perhaps they can serve the role of being a central location for the entire Open Watcom community.

revelator commented 9 years ago

Also good, Somewhere to discuss changes in realtime might be a good idea also so dont count out forums ;) they served the community i came from quite well over the years and the oldest of devs are still active on them (some 20 years plus like myself).

I know from experience that most devs involved in building compilers would want to keep a tight lid on who can apply because of lack of knowledge or overestimation of there own abilities on some who might chime in, so in the community i come from we keep the development off limits but otherwise open to the public. One can then ask for developer access, and if he or she knows there thing that could be granted, meanwhile everyone gets to know each other and are free to exchange ideas (sometimes even interresting code) on the forums. This sometimes happens to also give the head devs some ahaaa moments (hey blind monkey sometimes also finds bananas, or is it a very smart monkey ? ;) ). Having newsgroups would fit in nicely with the above but also make for a more lively development team when most know eachother.