chris-little
commented
7 months ago Completed responses to comments received 2023-12-11: Abstract Missing blank in "...terminology.The..." ACCEPTED. Corrected.
Preface "... Because of this effort, many people use calendar based "coordinates", with the attendant ambiguities, imprecision and inappropriate scope." ACCEPTED. Replaced "Because..." by "A consequence ..."
"attendant ambiguities", ACCEPTED. Replaced by "associated ambiguities in underlying algorithms, ..."
"people" ACCEPTED. Replaced by "end-users and software developers"
Normative references There are some problems with closing paranthesis and some unmotivated ellipsis in the two references to ISO documents. ACCEPTED. Corrected to Springer MathPhys Citation Style.
Terms, definitions... Datum + Reference frame: The indicator "Admitted" ACCEPTED. Metanorma error in production system.
The definition given for the term "reference frame" (and reference system) is geodetically dubious, but that will be a problem to tackle in connection with the next ISO-19111 and/or ISO-19161 revision. NOTED As this is about temporal reference systems, we have taken a mathematical view of coordinates, rather than a geodetic one. And we venture off-planet.
Temporal regimes "To more clearly think about time, this Abstract Specification adopts the term "Regime" to..." Inappropriate anthropomorphization: The specification is not a person. It cannot think and it cannot adopt. Suggestion: "To enable more clear reasoning about time, ... we adopt, for the purposes of this Abstract Specification, ..." ACCEPTED. We used "To enable more clear reasoning about time, ... this Abstract Specification uses..."
"Paradoxically, the calendar regime has historically driven advances in mathematics and physics." Citation needed. ACCEPTED. Scientific American article cited.
Calendars "Allen Operators" - The link is invisible. ACCEPTED. Link visible in GitHub. Metanorma error in production system.
"Calendrical Calculations" - The link is invisible. ACCEPTED. Link visible in GitHub. Metanorma error in production system. Clarified that it is a book.
"There is no simple arithmetic." ACCEPTED. Replaced by "Typically there is no simple arithmetic connecting calendar systems and timescales". This is to avoid confusion between continuous and discrete timescales, both of which are not discontinuous. I did consider having continuous and discrete timescales as distinct entities, but felt that mathematics suggests not.
Other regimes "Astronomical Algorithms" - same problem as for "Calendrical Calculations" above: ACCEPTED. Link visible in GitHub. Metanorma error in production system. Clarified that it is a book.
Since the speed of light, c , in a vacuum is a measurable constant: a. remove the blank after c NOTED. But no space in the source. Probably a MetaNorma formatting issue. b. Given that the numerical value of c is by definition 299_792_458 m/s, it can hardly be measured. It can be observed, though. So I recommend the wording "observable constant" ACCEPTED. Though obervables are measured!
"space weather approaching from the sun" I'm unsure, but I believe we're first talking about space weather once it creates disturbances in the ionosphere. So probably rather something like "the prediction of space weather events, due to eruptions approaching from the sun" REJECTED. Like many others, we are using a wider definition of "Space Weather" to indicate the state of space both near-Earth and other planets and the Sun, such as enroute to Mars, asteroids and the Earth-Sun Lagrange points, and includes the magnetosphere and particle fluxes outwards from the Sun.
Accountancy "The financial and administrative domains often use weeks, quarters, and other calendrical measures. These may be convenient (though often not!) for the requisite tasks, but are usually inappropriate for scientific or technical purposes."
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I believe the "may" in "may be convenient" provides the same meaning as the parenthetical "though often not", which is, in that case pleonastic and should be left out. REJECTED. Not completely pleonastic, and makes the required point succinctly.
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The "usually" in "usually inappropriate" covers the case of GPS weeks. This exceptional case may, however, deserve (footnote?) mentioning, to proactively shoot down irrelevant commentary from the GNSS community? REJECTED. We will take the risk of flamewars over this. We take the view that GPS Weeks (and GPS seconds) are actually a Notation for a timescale.
Events Avoid the cultural stereotypes "Xi" and "Yi". Perhaps replace by e.g. (NN, MM), (A, B) or (X, Y). PARTIALLY ACCEPTED. Now historically accurate and concrete examples.
"though not completely" -> though often not completely / though seldom completely / though typically not completely. PARTIALLY ACCEPTED used " though usually not completely".
Temporal CRS I repeat my remark that the term CRS is geodetically dubious, but also that this is not to be handled here, but in future revisions of ISO-19111/19161/19127. NOTED. As above.
Calendar RS "Calendar...Calculated algorithms": ACCEPTED. Replaced by "derived algorithms".
Clock Typo in "4.4m": missing "half space" ("\," in TeX lingo) between number and unit. ACCEPTED. Inserted a space.
Examples Example 1 needs too many "ifs and buts" (about stable climate, stable icesheets, and about the mechanics of snow compaction via firn into ice), to be truly useful. I suggest this wording:
"Example 1: A long, deep ice core is retrieved from an ice sheet. From chemical identification of layers representing known large scale volcanic eruptions, the connection between depth and time is known, so length can be converted to time. This enables the dates of some previously unknown large scale volcanic eruptions to be identified and timed." ACCEPTED. Replaced as suggested.
Synchronization "However, if the clocks are moving with respect to each other, they cannot be precisely coordinated (unless the communication is instantaneous)." The parenthetical reservation is unphysical, and should be left out.
Suggestion: "However, if the clocks are moving with respect to each other, perfect synchronization would require communication to be instantaneous." (I realize that the original text said "coordinated", not "synchronized", and I appreciate the difference. Feel free to use "perfect coordination", if that is a better fit) ACCEPTED. Used "perfect synchronization".
Also: another case of badly delineated references (to "A brief history of timekeeping") ACCEPTED. Link visible in GitHub. Metanorma error in production system. Clarified that it is a book.
Annex A Conformance tests Missing! NOTED. Will be removed.
Annex B Glossary It is unclear what entities belong here, vs. chapter 4 (Terms, definitions and abbreviated terms) NOTED. It will be removed as surplus. Chapter 4 has Normative terms, Glossary used for informative terms. Only used to cross check with ISO19111. Will be removed.
Also, the problem with the typesetting of "ADMITTED" reoccurs here. ACCEPTED. Metanorma error in production system.
busstoptaktik
cmheazel
Public Comment received 2023-12-11 Abstract Missing blank in "...terminology.The..."
Preface "... Because of this effort, many people use calendar based "coordinates", with the attendant ambiguities, imprecision and inappropriate scope." Substantiate the claim indicated by "Because of this effort". Is it really "because"?
In general, wording is too vague, the term "attendant ambiguities", while being rhythmically attractive, leaves me baffled.
"people" Inappropriate titulation. End users?
Normative references There are some problems with closing paranthesis and some unmotivated ellipsis in the two references to ISO documents.
Terms, definitions... Datum + Reference frame: The indicator "Admitted" is duplicated in two different typographical designs.
The definition given for the term "reference frame" (and reference system) is geodetically dubious, but that will be a problem to tackle in connection with the next ISO-19111 and/or ISO-19161 revision.
Temporal regimes "To more clearly think about time, this Abstract Specification adopts the term "Regime" to..." Inappropriate anthropomorpization: The specification is not a person. It cannot think and it cannot adopt. Suggestion: "To enable more clear reasoning about time, ... we adopt, for the purposes of this Abstract Specification, ..."
"Paradoxically, the calendar regime has historically driven advances in mathematics and physics." Citation needed.
Calendars "Allen Operators" - The link is invisible.
"Calendrical Calculations" - The link is invisible. And perhaps the typographical representation should make it more clear that this is a reference to a book, rather than a sentence starting with the words "calendrical calculations" (or perhaps just use the numerical reference "[5]").
"There is no simple arithmetic." - This may be correct English, but to this non-native speaker, it sounds like a half-sentence is missing. I suggest "There is typically no simple arithmetic(al?) connection between calendar systems and continuous timescales".
Other regimes "Astronomical Algorithms" - same problem as for "Calendrical Calculations" above: Not sufficiently clear that this is a reference.
Since the speed of light, c , in a vacuum is a measurable constant: a. remove the blank after c; b. Given that the numerical value of c is by definition 299_792_458 m/s, it can hardly be measured. It can be observed, though. So I recommend the wording "observable constant".
"space weather approaching from the sun" I'm unsure, but I believe we're first talking about space weather once it creates disturbances in the ionosphere. So probably rather something like "the prediction of space weather events, due to eruptions approaching from the sun".
Accountancy "The financial and administrative domains often use weeks, quarters, and other calendrical measures. These may be convenient (though often not!) for the requisite tasks, but are usually inappropriate for scientific or technical purposes."
I believe the "may" in "may be convenient" provides the same meaning as the parenthetical "though often not", which is, in that case pleonastic and should be left out.
The "usually" in "usually inappropriate" covers the case of GPS weeks. This exceptional case may, however, deserve (footnote?) mentioning, to proactively shoot down irrelevant commentary from the GNSS community?
Events Avoid the cultural stereotypes "Xi" and "Yi". Perhaps replace by e.g. (NN, MM), (A, B) or (X, Y).
"though not completely" -> though often not completely / though seldom completely / though typically not completely.
Temporal CRS I repeat my remark that the term CRS is geodetically dubious, but also that this is not to be handled here, but in future revisions of ISO-19111/19161/19127.
Calendar RS "Calendar...Calculated algorithms": I believe algorithms are derived (not calculated), then used for calculations.
Clock Typo in "4.4m": missing "half space" ("\," in TeX lingo) between number and unit.
Examples Example 1 needs too many "ifs and buts" (about stable climate, stable icesheets, and about the mechanics of snow compaction via firn into ice), to be truly useful. I suggest this wording:
"Example 1: A long, deep ice core is retrieved from an ice sheet. From chemical identification of layers representing known large scale volcanic eruptions, the connection between depth and time is known, so length can be converted to time. This enables the dates of some previously unknown large scale volcanic eruptions to be identified and timed."
Synchronization "However, if the clocks are moving with respect to each other, they cannot be precisely coordinated (unless the communication is instantaneous)." The parenthetical reservation is unphysical, and should be left out.
Suggestion: "However, if the clocks are moving with respect to each other, perfect synchronization would require communication to be instantaneous." (I realize that the original text said "coordinated", not "synchronized", and I appreciate the difference. Feel free to use "perfect coordination", if that is a better fit).
Also: another case of badly delineated references (to "A brief history of timekeeping").
Annex A Conformance tests Missing!
Annex B Glossary It is unclear what entities belong here, vs. chapter 4 (Terms, definitions and abbreviated terms) Also, the problem with the typesetting of "ADMITTED" reoccurs here.