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openhab / openhab-core

Core framework of openHAB
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Discussion on ontology improvement #1791

Closed lolodomo closed 1 year ago

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

I open this topic to help improving the current ontology. Of course, the ontology cannot cover all cases but at least it should cover what most of users will need.

Here are the changes proposed in the next messages.

New location entries:

New location synonyms:

New equiipment entries:

New property entries:

Properties removed:

rkoshak commented 3 years ago

Ah, I wasn't even thinking about that kind of stove. At least in my region, a combo cooktop and oven is called a stove and only rarely called a range.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

We call it a stove informally too but look what is for sale in a store. It is a range.

image

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ranges-ovens-stoves/ranges/abcat0904003.c

TBail commented 3 years ago

Why create all these separate sensors when we have Points? Points seem to be missing from this entire conversation in fact. For example, instead of adding a Temperature Sensor use equipment "Sensor" and add "Temperature" as the Point? I thought that was how it was supposed to be done. The equipment tells us what it is and the Points define the individual sensors and given that I wonder if a lot of the new Equipments listed above would not better be represented by Points. For example, I'd model (and have) a DIY sensor bundle I make and deploy around the house as Group tagged with Sensor and then the members represent each of the sensors on the device with the appropriate Point tag (Measurement Temperature, Measurement Humidity, LowBattery Energy (for battery level), Status Power (for online/offline status which feels awkward, maybe we could add an Online Point?)). I would expect the Meter to be modeled as Meter Equipment with a Measurement Water Point instead of having a separate WaterMeter equipment which will still need a Measurement Water Point.

I think this is a good point and for me a sinhat i currently did not understand the onthology in full range. This an the discussion about stove, oven, range leads me to the point that we should write descriptions for each equipment.

TBail commented 3 years ago

There is another class called brown goods compared to white goods. Brwon goods are covering all hifi equipment.

I will update the equipment picture with all the hints

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

Temperature is not a point but a property to combine with point measurement in the case of a temperature sensor. But that it is true that we don't need a temperature sensor equipment, a Sensor equipment is enough.

tarag commented 3 years ago

I stumbled upon this thread looking for ways to achieve the location tagging in some oh3 projects I am starting.

I believe the following Location type is missing: Appartement (a group. of room within a building that belong to the same occupant)

Maybe apartment is not the right and most universal term, but I don't see any existing location tag that could replace that, it seems there is nothing in between floor and room, or building and floor (an appartement could span several floors).

Equipment-wise, OccupancySensor is missing, as a motion sensor could be used for such purpose but is usually not the right technical solution. Some all-in-one devices now exist to provide this capability.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

I believe the following Location type is missing: Appartement (a group. of room within a building that belong to the same occupant)

That would be Apartment. Since OH is primarily designed for home use rather than business use, that location would not me useful to many users.

tarag commented 3 years ago

Chicken and egg problem somehow :) Thanks for the spelling mistake...

I think this could be interesting even for home use since in some houses, part of the house is made available for rental and have a separate entry, therefore being an apartment within a house.

Also, in some situations for HVAC systems you have only one thermostat controlling several rooms because all the ducts/pipes lead to the same heat/cool producer. In that case a group of room might be useful. Maybe the generic Location tag is adequate though.

rkoshak commented 3 years ago

It's not super intuitive, but you could use "building" to consolidate the rooms for an apartment. While the word isn't quite right for that context, the overall purpose is the same. It's a sort of container for floors and rooms.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago
  • Property
  • Residential Building
  • Summerhouse

House is even not present and you would like to add Summerhouse ? I think House should be first added. And "second home" would be a little more generic than "summer house". What is for you a property ? Is it the set of house and garden ? It would be the mix of Indoor and Outdoor ? Regarding residential building, building is already there.

And yes, apartment is very probably something to add.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

We could have Summerhouse with "second home" as synonym.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago
  • Meter
  • Electrcity Meter - Parent Meter
  • Water Meter - Parent Meter
  • Natural Gas Meter - Parent Meter

IMHO, they are sensors. I already added "Sensor". If we don't add a temperature sensor, we will not add a water meter.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

I pushed a first set of new entries. Only English and French are provided.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

BackDoor (parent=Door) CellarDoor (parent=Door) InnerDoor (parent=Door) SideDoor (parent=Door) Gate (parent=Door)

What's the interest to detail any kind of door ?

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

IMHO, they are sensors

Sensors & meters are 2 different things. Sensors sense a condition (electrical current or power draw in amps or watts) Meters record a quantity (electrical usage in KwH).

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

@mhilbush : seismic is an adjective, isn't it ? What could be used as a name ?

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

BackDoor (parent=Door) CellarDoor (parent=Door) InnerDoor (parent=Door) SideDoor (parent=Door) Gate (parent=Door)

What's the interest to detail any kind of door ?

Locations for doors (the first 4) are not needed. A Gate is a type of door so could be included.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

@mhilbush : seismic is an adjective, isn't it ? What could be used as a name ?

vibration? That would be a type of sensor?

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

Sensors & meters are 2 different things. Sensors sense a condition (electrical current or power draw in amps or watts) Meters record a quantity (electrical usage in KwH).

Not clear for me ! I have no idea how to translate it in French ! We could then add "Meter" (like "Sensor") but forget any kind of meters.

Same for pump, maybe one generic "Pump" equipement.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

vibration? That would be a type of sensor?

We are talking about the property measured by the equipment, not the equipment itself. Vibration looks like a good proposal.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

[x] KitchenHood (parent=WhiteGood) PR #1814

Shouldn't its parent be Fan? Its main purpose is fan-based.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

Just a thought. Should Alarm & Doorbell have a parent called Alert? They are both audibly alerting to a condition.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

but forget any kind of meters

IMO kinds of meters make more sense than the door locations since an item can have multiple tags.

We should try to be consistent here.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

A Gate is a type of door so could be included.

Is a gate the same as a portail ?

As this is common to have automation for portal, that would be a good idea to add it.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

Is a gate the same as a portail ?

As this is common to have automation for portal, that would be a good idea to add it.

IMO portal is too imprecise as are too many words in the English language. Many web pages are referred to as portals, for instance.

If a Gate is a portal so is a Door. We do not want to descend into meaninglessness due to having too much deep thought here.

mhilbush commented 3 years ago

What's the interest to detail any kind of door ?

As Front Door is already there (and assuming we want to keep it), then IMO it would make sense to add a variety of other doors.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

Front Door is already there

Breakage is expected in major versions such as OH3 though ;)

mhilbush commented 3 years ago

seismic is an adjective, isn't it ? What could be used as a name ?

Hmm good point. I'd agree with vibration.

The Fibaro Z-Wave sensor reports this. I suspect there may be other sensors that also report it.

mhilbush commented 3 years ago

Breakage is expected in major versions such as OH3 though ;)

Maybe. But Front Door was put there for a reason (whatever that may be). Shouldn't there be a reason to remove it?

mhilbush commented 3 years ago

Also, If we don't want different varieties of Door, why do we need Kitchen, Dining Room, Living Room, Bedroom, etc? Wouldn't just Room be sufficient?

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

I'd agree with vibration.

Much less drastic than Earthquake - RUN LOL

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

Also, If we don't want different varieties of Door, why do we need Kitchen, Dining Room, Living Room, Bedroom, etc? Wouldn't just Room be sufficient?

Doors have common purposes. Rooms are used very differently. Not much difference between a Kitchen Door & a Bathroom Door. A much larger difference in use between a Kitchen & a Bathroom. At least I hope so...

mhilbush commented 3 years ago

Yeah, I guess my thinking might be flawed here. I was thinking about Doors in terms of their Location, but I see Door is defined as a type of Equipment. I have equipment (doorbell, lights, locks, sensors) located at different doors, and was thinking it would make sense to be able to associate those things with their location. But, given that Door and Front Door are defined as Equipment, that doesn't make sense.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

[x] Porch (parent=Outside) PR #1814

To be consistent, parent should be Building. Porches are always attached to buildings by definition. Correct? Otherwise it is a Patio or perhaps a Gazebo.

Perhaps Gazebo & Pergola as children of Patio?

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

Pump and Vibration added to the PR.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

[x] Porch (parent=Outside) PR #1814

To be consistent, parent should be Building. Porches are always attached to buildings by definition. Correct? Otherwise it is a Patio or perhaps a Gazebo.

I see what you mean but I am not sure. Considering a porch as a building looks strange. As you said, it is attached to a building, but it is not a building, more a part of a building but outside of the building :)

Perhaps Gazebo & Pergola as children of Patio?

Pergola is similar to patio, I believe. Mayve we should add a synonym.

Regarding gazebo, of course, most of users have one :)

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

porch as a building looks strange.

Porch should have the same parent as Floor. It appears to be missing but has (zombie?) children. LOL

Pergola is similar to patio,

It has an uncovered roof.

Regarding gazebo, of course, most of users have one :)

Not here in the southern US too much

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

Shouldn't its parent be Fan? Its main purpose is fan-based.

That's true. Is it ok for everybody to consider a kitchen hood as a fan rather than s white good?

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

Maybe. But Front Door was put there for a reason (whatever that may be). Shouldn't there be a reason to remove it?

No. The idea is not to break what already exists but rather add a limited number of missing entries.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

Porch should have the same parent as Floor. It appears to be missing but has (zombie?) children. LOL

Porch is similar to a terrace, it is outside the building but "linked" to the building.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

The idea is not to break what already exists

OK but I thought one reason for major releases was to permit breakage where appropriate.

You are the BFDL for this issue though šŸ¤£

mstroeve commented 3 years ago

@lolodomo i saw your PR looks good. Just curious what is the preferred way to get the new translations added?

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

Porch is similar to a terrace, it is outside the building but "linked" to the building.

And Floor is linked inside the Building but is missing. There is no Floor defined but there are many children.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

@lolodomo i saw your PR looks good. Just curious what is the preferred way to get the new translations added?

Ideally by a PR to my repo/branch that I will accept and merge.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

And Floor is linked inside the Building but is missing. There is no Floor defined but there are many children.

I don't understand, Floor is defined.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

I don't understand, Floor is defined.

OK the list is just NEW stuff. I assumed it was complete. Sorry.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

For Gate, I don't understand what is the conclusion. With my bad English, gate = door.

bwosborne2 commented 3 years ago

A gate functions similar to a door but usually for outdoor fenced areas. Many times it is no solid but much like a part of the fence.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

KitchenHood is now updated.

lolodomo commented 3 years ago

A gate functions similar to a door but usually for outdoor fenced areas. Many times it is no solid but much like a part of the fence.

Ok, your definition matches what I will call a "portail" in French.

https://wikidiff.com/portal/gate

Ok for me to add gate.