Root on ZFS: warning for GRUB incompatibility with bpool snapshots

[ghost]

@gmelikov

[ghost]

Also added a warning against encrypted send/recv. Seems to be quite serious, see for example this spreadsheet by maintainers of ZFSBootMenu.

[ghost]

@rincebrain You may not care about Root on ZFS at all, but I still would like to ask what should we, the Root on ZFS users, do, re: your comment at this link.

Recently, due to your comment and this GRUB issue, I have come to recognize each and every ZFS feature as suspicious which should not be enabled unless there is a real need and there is no other alternative. Does this view point make any sense? Should we take note of this when writing tutorials?

I'm currently writing guides to replace ZFS native encryption with LUKS. LUKS seems to be more stable and better maintained.

[ghost]

In other words: is defaulting to zpool create -o compatibility=legacy on every pool, a good idea?

[rincebrain]

Depends how much you worry about your data being intact.

The maintainers do their best, but fundamentally, every new change has some risk of having bugs introduced - the more invasive, the more likely, for some definition of each. If you have backups, or aren't keeping any data that's that bad to lose, then sure, run the bleeding edge and shrug. The more you want to be careful about not losing your data, the longer I would suggest you test things in an environment where the data isn't that dangerous to lose before upgrading or enabling a new setup.

I usually recommend that people set up with the defaults in general and then only vary from it as needed for their environment, including only enabling features you deliberately need versus using zpool upgrade to turn everything on that has been added since you made the pool (or, with compatibility=, up to that limit). For bootable setups, you would usually use a bpool with something like compatibility=grub2 since they don't really support newer features, to avoid breaking things there, but for a root pool with a boot pool, then you don't need it for that.

All that to say, I don't think I'd suggest compatibility=legacy as a default. Maybe the current OpenZFS major release, if you like, but I don't think advising people to pick a specific feature set (or "none") as a baseline is going to help matters in any specific way. Encryption is still a buggy mess, but I don't think pinning things to 0.7 would be a particularly great outcome to avoid that, for example.

You could try to synthesize manually a feature list that you thought were stable enough and keep it updated, but that seems fraught.

(Oh, and that spreadsheet is mine.)

[ghost]

Rich Ercolani @.***> writes:

Depends how much you worry about your data being intact.

As the whole value propostion of ZFS is about data integrity, and many go through a lot of trouble to get (Root on) ZFS working precisely because of this reason, I would put data integrity above all else.

Especially so, considering many people starts using ZFS with these tutorials. Maybe the developers does not care about non-enterprise users, but it is still important to build trust among home/personal users.

The maintainers do their best, but fundamentally, every new change has some risk of having bugs introduced

Yes, I do believe the developers have the best intentions, but, as current software engineering practices does not encourage "correctness proofs" in the mathematical sense, bugs are unavoidable.

Proofs such as: https://github.com/seL4/l4v

I usually recommend that people set up with the defaults in general and then only vary from it as needed for their environment, including only enabling features you deliberately need

Good. Will add this note to the tutorials.

versus using zpool upgrade to turn everything on that has been added since you made the pool (or, with compatibility=, up to that limit).

compatibility= is great in two ways: it suppresses the "zpool upgrade" message, and it prevents the upgrade command from doing real damage.

I think it should be set everywhere, based on these two reasons.

For bootable setups, you would usually use a bpool with something like compatibility=grub2 since they don't really support newer features

But as it turned out, even compatibility=grub2 wasn't sufficient to keep GRUB happy, as seen in #463.

I don't think advising people to pick a specific feature set (or "none") as a baseline is going to help matters in any specific way.

You could try to synthesize manually a feature list that you thought were stable enough and keep it updated, but that seems fraught.

I have neither the authority, nor have the knowledge for maintainig such a list. If compatibility=legacy plus LUKS will make the majority of causual users happy, so be it.

(Oh, and that spreadsheet is mine.)

Apologies for the misattribution. Will fix.

[rincebrain]

I'm familiar with formal verification, thank you.

I would be surprised if a PR that recommended turning off every feature flag was accepted, if I'm honest. "Don't use any features" isn't really a workable approach, and since most of the testing is going to be on pools with those features enabled, there's a nontrivial risk incurred as well the further you deviate from what's been tested well - so the "everything off" option isn't a global maximum of minimized risk for data loss, it's a tradeoff of risk profiles, like everything else.

I personally don't think anything but native encryption has been fraught enough that I would discourage its use by default, except hole_birth, but that's basically a noop unless someone drops the tunable turning it off again.

If you want to recommend compatibility=legacy with GRUB, be my guest, the feature list for a pool holding /boot is pretty academic. But I wouldn't really encourage just turning off all ZFS feature flags "for safety" - it's not strictly safer, it's just trading one risk for another.

Everything is going to be a sliding scale of risks in various dimensions. Sometimes people report bugs against a weird edge case that came up in RHEL because the particular permutation of cherrypicked kernel features hadn't been tested, particularly on older RHEL releases where the delta from mainline Linux can grow quite large. Sometimes people discover that a particular edge case like specific conditions in memory or IO pressure like openzfs/openzfs#15439 didn't come up in their testing but breaks quite easily for some other people's workloads.

If you disable very user-visible features like zstd support or encryption or BRT by default, that's going to cause an increase in complaints about that not working and not knowing why, as well as the risk of strange edge cases where one thing is on and not another. I would personally suggest that running the default set of feature flags enabled, and just waiting a bit to update each time to see if anything in the common cases that wasn't found in testing somehow gets reported, is probably a better tradeoff than recommending people pick a less well tested path to run through.

[ghost]

Thanks for the detailed and in-depth reply.

I'm now convinced that the tutorials should stick to the defaults -- so as to not diverge too much from well-tested setups -- and put big, fat, warnings against troublesome features in the text, currently "encryption".

For boot pool, where compatibility with GRUB is paramount and features are secondary, I think legacy would work. But that's just my guess. Currently, with the sample size of one (me), compatibility=grub2 with root dataset snapshot will break GRUB, whereas legacy wouldn't.

Reading your reply, I wonder if there is a low-traffic mailing list where advisories on ZFS are sent. This would certainly be beneficial.

[ghost]

Oh, I also heard elsewhere that zvol in general is also quite buggy and no one in the enterprise uses them. Datasets are the way to go. Is this true?

[rincebrain]

zvols are a kind of dataset - it'd be nice if we had a term for just "filesystem+volume" because the term also covers snapshots and bookmarks, but here we are.

If grub breaks with a snapshot on the root, that should probably be a straightforward fix, since I don't think it used to, though I don't know the codebase.

As far as I know, zvols are actively used by a number of entities of varying sizes - I don't do this for a day job at this point, and personally, I don't have much use for zvols, but they've worked pretty well when I've used them, and the PRs adding things like blk-mq support and improving the behavior interactions with the "quota" of volsize seem to corroborate people using them actively.

[ahesford]

1. The spreadsheet linked here doesn't come from ZFSBootMenu, but we are aware of it.
2. The Internet is littered with people who have been bitten by GRUB stupidity with ZFS. I won't advocate strongly for ZFSBootMenu in these guides---we have our own guides for several distributions if people want to go that route---but I would advocate against trying to shoehorn a ZFS installation into GRUB compatibility. If you aren't going to use a bootloader that will just work with your pool as you want it, you're better off just leaving /boot off of ZFS entirely. Make an ext4 filesystem or put /boot on your EFI system partition.

[ghost]

Again, I bear no personal animosity toward ZBM.

but I would advocate against trying to shoehorn a ZFS installation into GRUB compatibility

ZBM or GRUB, these are just alternatives with its own set of advantages and disadvantages. You call a separate boot pool the art of "shoehorning", I call a custom-built kernel, distributed over the internet, a violation of GPL/CDDL.

Eventually, I'm a lazy and tired person who does not have the means to maintain a bootloader, which is a critical piece of software. But you have, and that's awesome!

you're better off just leaving /boot off of ZFS entirely. Make an ext4 filesystem or put /boot on your EFI system partition

Initrd integrity is also important. I hope you did guarantee the integrity of ZBM in your guides, across several different disks.

One main goal I wrote these guides in the first place, was to write a reliable and easy multi-disk root on ZFS guide where bootloader failure are also correctly handled. Remember, without multi-disk, many of ZFS's integrity protections amounts to nothing.

Make an ext4 filesystem or put /boot on your EFI system partition.

Therefore that's not a feasible option.

[ahesford]

1. I don't know what "a custom-built kernel, distributed over the internet", refers to. ZFSBootMenu doesn't customize any kernel. When built locally from a user's system, it takes the user's kernel and ZFS modules. When people download pre-built release assets, which we provide as a convenience, they use a stock Void Linux kernel and its stock ZFS kernel module built via DKMS.

2. "Initrd integrity" isn't really all that important, because an initramfs image can be trivially rebuilt. In fact, your distribution does it all the time after a kernel upgrade.

   To be clear, I wholly advocate putting /boot on ZFS---but done the right way, on the same pool (in fact, the same filesystem) that hosts your operating system to begin with. Most of the troubles with GRUB and ZFS come from one of two massive failures: lack of support for modern ZFS features, or a loss of synchronization between whatever is in /boot and whatever lives on the main system (in particular, /lib/modules). The first problem is manifest by the army of people on r/zfs and other online forums who have screwed themselves by inadvertently upgrading a pool. The second is manifest by the massive failure that was zsys, which attempted (poorly) to solve the inherent synchronization problem.

   However, if you don't want to put your faith in a bootloader that just works with your pool, there are other ways to get high availability that are less error-prone than the fragile approach demanded by GRUB's limited ZFS support.

3. Your assertion that "without multi-disk, many of ZFS's integrity protections amount[] to nothing" is nonsense. ZFS offers incredible value with respect to data integrity and availability even on a single disk.

4. None of your multi-disk bootloader approach has anything to do with ZFS or, for that matter, GRUB. It amounts to "mirror your EFI system partition and, when necessary, replicate the boot sector on multiple disks". This can be applied to any bootloader and doesn't mitigate GRUB's problems with ZFS and the fragile configurations built around it. In fact, if you're using EFI booting, high availability of ZFSBootMenu is even easier, because you can dump it on any EFI system partition, including on any number of cheap USB drives that you can keep in your pocket for emergencies.

[ghost]

So would you -- and all other people using & watching this repo -- accept my offer of transferring the maintainence of all my guides, except NixOS, to your team, optionally including the switch from GRUB to ZBM?

I realize that this is not my choice to make, but I still would like to hear your opinion on this matter.

I don't have any motivation or vested interest in defending my arguments; I would rather give up maintaining them. Non-functional distros are dead-ends for me. For distros besides NixOS, I can't do much beyond monitoring the automated tests, honest. (Although I consider those tests highly reliable.)

Now, some tidbits about NixOS. Background: I use NixOS on all my computing devices except smartphones and I am actively contributing to nixpkgs.

As NixOS has its own ideas about atomic package management, boot environments are pretty useless over here. Even harmful, I would say. Stateless root is much the better alternative.

GRUB integration with NixOS has been quite good, and the perl script bug with GRUB-ARM64 was recently fixed in nixos-unstable. So now Root on ZFS can also be used with UEFI/ARM or u-boot/ARM, among others. I have received feedback on such setups elsewhere.

[ahesford]

I have no interest in maintaining extra guides on OpenZFS sites. We maintain guides at docs.zfsbootmenu.org that describe what we consider best practices for ZFS on root, with the purpose of facilitating deployment of ZFSBootMenu. We maintain editorial control of those guides.

If people want to amend the community-contributed OpenZFS guides to refer to our instructions, that is between those proposing the change and those with the authority to approve it. We don't care either way.

[ghost]

I will add some references to ZBM then, and see whether the PR gets approved. I do not want to make the impression that I'm intentionally hiding anything.

[ghost]

I'll close this and reopen as seperate PRs.