[REQUEST] Mapillary FOSS alternative

[TomJansen]

Hello, I have a request to use an alternative to Mapillary, because Mapillary is not FOSS. An alternative to Mapillary can be openstreetcam (http://openstreetcam.org).

What do you think about this?

[vshcherb]

OsmAnd is mostly values OSM users and Mapillary is more usable to OSM Mappers.

To be honest I don't see much difference with openstreetcam. With Street Imagery what we should care 1) Stable service 2) Authorship/License 3) Possibility to download the data.

As Far as I know Mapillary position is to allow OSM users to use Images for OSM Mapping perpetually. And it is inline with OsmAnd position to extend usability of OSM maps.

We don't plan to integrate with http://openstreetcam.org so far

[PhieF]

What about now ? OpenStreetCam is widely used and easy to used with Android, even for an OSM Mapper ? Having both could be complementary ?

[Aiurek]

@PhieF check #9402

[NotSoImportant]

@vshcherb As some people are turning away from Mapillary now, can we have this request reopened?

[vshcherb]

Sure, we will work on it to provide own alternative for Place Images at least

[NotSoImportant]

For place images wikimedia commons would be a good fit I guess. What do you think?

[vshcherb]

We already use it and support wikimedia, you can check beta build 3.9 though we're going to expand alternatives anyway

[NotSoImportant]

Amazing. How/where can I get 3.9 beta?

[vshcherb]

Mistake, 3.8-beta and in nightly - https://github.com/osmandapp/OsmAnd-iOS/issues/538 here you can find list of OSM node ids where it's working

[NotSoImportant]

I found the link to download nighlty build at https://osmand.net/downloads But where can I find 3.8 beta?

[pebogufi]

https://download.osmand.net/releases/

[NotSoImportant]

In the nightly build I can see images from Wikimedia displayed but directly adding some in osmand seems only possible with Mapillary right now, right? So what is the benefit for Wikimedia? I hope this is planned soon. I would love to contribute. However also the terms for contribution have to be clearly displayed then I think (e.g. am I allowed to upload the foto of a map?)

[kocjs]

Seems like OpenStreetCam is part of Grap already

[kocjs]

From the privacy policy http://openstreetcam.org/privacy-policy

We may share the information we collect about you and your usage activity on an anonymous, aggregated basis with our third party partners, based on our legitimate interests for the purpose of performing research and analysis about users of our products and services.

[MPeti1]

I think we can forget about openstreetcam (now kartaview).

• their website contains facebook tracking scripts
• they are not willing to remove proprietary libraries to be able to distribute the app on F-droid
  • this includes not willing to remove tracking libraries, including the facebook sdk
• the app is not open source anymore, source code is very rarely published. open source is just a buzzword to them

source:

• kartaview/android#8
• kartaview/android#153

[hermann-san]

it looks like Kartaview belongs to grab.com , according to the Kartaview terms and conditions Can somebody pls. confirm that I've got that right?

Wikipedia about Grab:

In addition to transportation, the company offers food delivery and digital payments services via a mobile app. Starting in 2012 as the MyTeksi app based in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, it expanded the next year as GrabTaxi. It has since expanded into other services, following the "super app" model. In 2014, it moved its headquarters to Singapore and renamed itself to just Grab.

It currently mostly operates in Southeast Asia. It is the region's first "decacorn" (a startup with a valuation of over US$10 billion),[14][15] and as of May 2021 its valuation was just under US$40 billion

[parcelcat]

I still think it would be nice to have KartaView as an option for street imagery in OsmAnd.

KartaView is no worse than Mapillary. Even though KartaView offers Facebook account sign-in on its website as an option, that's not nearly as significant as Mapillary being fully owned by Facebook. And even though people have had trouble building the Android app from KartaView's source code, Mapillary's apps are fully proprietary with no source code released at all.

Having more data sources available in OsmAnd would benefit users, as long as these sources can be turned on and off.

[hamishmb]

Of note is that Mapillary's website doesn't seem to work any more, I just get a blank page.

EDIT: My bad configuration, see below.

[hermann-san]

@hamishmb this might be a add-block issue. It works fine with Brave Browser.

[hamishmb]

My bad, it was Firefox's (excellent) Facebook Container blocking it for me.

[endolith]

Ideally they would just merge, since they do the same thing: https://github.com/kartaview/openstreetcam.org/issues/60

[mnalis]

Ideally they would just merge, since they do the same thing: kartaview/openstreetcam.org#60

How would that be ideal? They are different companies, and some people for example highly dislike handing over data to Facebook (also known as Mapillary).

This sounds like saying that "it would be ideal if Google Maps and OpenStreetMap would just merge, since they do the same thing" (I'm sure it would be ideal for Google and their users, but most everybody else would be highly upset to say the least)

[endolith]

They are different companies, and some people for example highly dislike handing over data to Facebook (also known as Mapillary).

What? All Mapillary content is copyleft-licensed. You are "handing your data" over to the public, not to Facebook. Did you read the linked thread?

When you submit imagery to OpenStreetCam/OpenStreetView/KartaView:

You hereby grant to Grab a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable license to do any act that is restricted by copyright, database right or any related right (which will include without limitation the right to host, publish, distribute or use) over anything within the Content, whether in the original medium or any other. These rights explicitly include commercial use, and do not exclude any field of endeavor. These rights include, without limitation, the right to sub-license the Content through multiple tiers of sub-licensees and to sue for any copyright violation directly connected with Grab’s rights under these Terms and Conditions of Use.

 

This sounds like saying that "it would be ideal if Google Maps and OpenStreetMap would just merge, since they do the same thing"

Those don't do the same thing, though. One is proprietary and the other is copyleft.

[hermann-san]

Facebook (Mapillary) as well as Kartaview, surely would like to make some money out of their products. So what does Facebook do? It tracks it's app users, isn' t? location information etc. in order to sell it (in the best case). That's why Kartaview exist ;-) (Open source server/client software). I guess Kartaview users would have to pay to "free" the images. How else is Kartaview supposed to make money?

[endolith]

That's why Kartaview exist ;-) (Open source server/client software).

Is it? https://github.com/kartaview/android/issues/153

(although no functioning open-source app can be built at least since December 2017, due to requirement of other proprietary components)

[mnalis]

What? All Mapillary content is copyleft-licensed. You are "handing your data" over to the public, not to Facebook. Did you read the linked thread?

I did @endolith , but it would help if you quoted exact text you'd like discussed from there. (also note that that thread is from before Facebook acquisition, so some info is outdated).

When you submit imagery to OpenStreetCam/OpenStreetView/KartaView:

You hereby grant to Grab a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable license to do any act that is restricted by copyright, database right or any related right (which will include without limitation the right to host, publish, distribute or use) over anything within the Content

True. And here is what Mapillary says in their https://www.mapillary.com/terms:

The Mapillary Services, and all data and content included therein (including User Content, which is defined below), are owned by Mapillary or our licensors and are protected under relevant intellectual property laws. Except as explicitly stated in these Terms, all rights in and to the Mapillary Services are reserved by us or our licensors. Subject to your compliance with these Terms, you are hereby granted a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to access and use the Mapillary Services (excluding User Content, which is subject to Section 3(b) below), including to install our mobile apps on a device you own or control. Any use of the Mapillary Services for commercial purposes is subject to the additional terms in Section 12 below.

(emphasis mine). Does not seem much more (or less) user-friendly to me.

Regarding "but Mapillary imagery is CC-BY-SA" -- so is imagery by Kartaview also CC-BY-SA. If you read those https://kartaview.org/terms further it says:

open source KartaView (" MIT License"), under the terms of the MIT License, and by licensing its imagery under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International (" CC-By-SA License"), with the license terms available at https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode. The content which you submit, post, display, upload on or via KartaView is therefore subject to the rules of the afore-mentioned MIT License and CC-By-SA License, fact which is hereby acknowledged and confirmed by you. KartaView uses open source libraries within its mobile applications as set out in http://grb.to/oss-attributions. You are free to copy, distribute, transmit and adapt data on KartaView, as long as you comply with the applicable open source license and credit Grab and the KartaView contributors. We require that you use the credit “© Grab and KartaView Contributors".

So, Kartaview imagery is also CC-BY-SA (and MIT free license for software)

Facebook (Mapillary) as well as Kartaview, surely would like to make some money out of their products. So what does Facebook do? It tracks it's app users, isn' t? location information etc. in order to sell it (in the best case).

Agreed. And Facebook is notoriously known for abusing using privacy for profit (probably more than any other company in the history).

That's why Kartaview exist ;-) (Open source server/client software).

@hermann-san unfortunately not completely true

How else is Kartaview supposed to make money?

if someone buys them (again)? :smiley:

[mnalis]

So here is quick rundown:

Question	Mapillary	Kartaview	Mapillio
Open source mobile app?	no	yes, but old and problematic	no
Open source server code?	no	yes, from 2019	no
Imagery license?	CC-BY-SA	CC-BY-SA	proprietary?
Infamous for privacy violations?	YES	no(?)	no

[endolith]

Does not seem much more (or less) user-friendly to me.

"but Mapillary imagery is CC-BY-SA" -- so is imagery by Kartaview also CC-BY-SA.

Yes, as I said before, "they do the same thing".

[mnalis]

You are "handing your data" over to the public, not to Facebook.

You absolutely are handing your data to Facebook. The Facebook (currently) chooses to also allow the public to use it under CC-BY-SA, but they could choose to stop doing that tomorrow if they liked, and still keep all the data to themselves. See part of the license terms I've quoted (and below).

This sounds like saying that "it would be ideal if Google Maps and OpenStreetMap would just merge, since they do the same thing"

Those don't do the same thing, though. One is proprietary and the other is copyleft.

Are you talking about data or the code? Mapillary's both server and mobile app code is proprietary, Kartaview server and mobile app code is open source (MIT licensed, albeit old).

This issue seems to talk about "alternative to Mapillary, because Mapillary is not FOSS". Note that "FOSS" means "Free and open-source software" (emphasis mine), so I've understood this issue to be about software.

Sure, there are many other things that people might prefer (e.g. that the use of service is gratis, that the company respects users privacy, that the images are available for use in OSM and elsewhere under open license, that the software is bug free and fast and does not drain battery quickly, that the images are plentiful, that the service is long lived and stable etc.) but those are not really tied to "FOSS vs. closed-source" issue, but will likely influence decision whether it is worth supporting it.

"but Mapillary imagery is CC-BY-SA" -- so is imagery by Kartaview also CC-BY-SA. Yes, as I said before, "they do the same thing".

So, you agree that OsmAnd should support both?

[hermann-san]

How else is Kartaview supposed to make money?

if someone buys them (again)? smiley

That will not generate the new owner any revenue. They will still have the same challenge to make money with it.

[mnalis]

How else is Kartaview supposed to make money?

if someone buys them (again)? smiley

That will not generate the new owner any revenue. They will still have the same challenge to make money with it.

Of course, but that was not the question, it was how the Kartaview (i.e. their current owners) would get money :smile:

Generally, only hope (that many startups actually aim for) is that new owner will be someone who does not need any revenue from that service, and instead just want to remove annoying competition from the board and acquire their users to suck their privacy dry.

(e.g. think how Facebook did that with Whatsapp. They did not need another messaging application or functionality thereof. They just didn't feel like having competition around becoming possible threat in the future, and being able to get all that user data was valuable so they put same money in that order)

Not that I think that anybody would consider buying Kartaview at this point (although the cycle may still continue in the Amiga fashion until it becomes even more of the mockery) ... With Grab's continuous ignoring of the community and all but forgetting that the product even exists, they're driving Kartaview into "irrelevant" land quite consistently...

[upintheairsheep]

We should either have Mapilary requests be proxies via OsmAnd servers to prevent tracking or host our own server importing every Mapilary image.

Mapilary is the only service that has lots of open data

[MPeti1]

That would probably cost a lot of money to OsmAnd. These are images which are large anyhow, and a lot of phones today make pictures with a resolution larger than fullhd by default. Also, going that route users would still funnel tons of data to facebook.

[upintheairsheep]

If they switch to an open source alternative without Mapilliary imagery, the option for Mapilliary should be kept for the foreseeable future but include a warning.

On Friday, January 19, 2024, MPeti1 @.***> wrote:

That would probably cost a lot of money to OsmAnd. These are images which are large anyhow, and a lot of phones today make pictures with a resolution larger than fullhd by default. Also, going that route users would still funnel tons of data to facebook.

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