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osmlab / name-suggestion-index

Canonical common brand names, operators, transit and flags for OpenStreetMap.
https://nsi.guide
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Logos - also distinguishing "true" brands from similarly-named independent businesses #2116

Closed ImreSamu closed 5 years ago

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/trade-mark-definition

Different Trademarks exists -

So same name("Caffé Nero") + Different Logo - probably legal , or at least exists.

in ideal case - we can show the logos for the user :

image

( related to "Caffé Nero" - https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/issues/2108 )

bhousel commented 6 years ago

@ImreSamu can you say more about what the issue is? It's not really clear to me. We know there will always be other uses of the brand names.

I'd love to be able to show logos in the openstreetmap editor.. Once the entries have been linked to wikidata, we can fetch logos from there, if available. All the logos would first need to be in wiki commons, or we could possibly fetch logos from their social media accounts.

It would be useful to try to link the wikidata ids to logos and see how successfully we can do that.

matkoniecz commented 6 years ago

@ImreSamu can you say more about what the issue is? It's not really clear to me

Also for me, I have no idea what the trademark problem is supposed to be.

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

can you say more about what the issue is? It's not really clear to me

sorry,

My problem is the same: preventing injecting a "false" brand= tags to the database.

my real problem :)

I do have skin in the game

And the same name no guarantee - like this "Caffé Nero" is not member the "Caffé Nero" Company ( different logo )

So My real problem, How Can I validate "Figurative Trademark" brands?

matkoniecz commented 6 years ago

When "brand type" == "Figurative Trademark" ( with a logo ) - then it can be a problem, the "name=" NOT ALWAYS has the same "brand=" ; Only the logo protected.

Can you give examples of a "Figurative Trademark" brands? I am still unsure what is the problem.

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

As I see - this help to understand:

"FIGURATIVE trademark protects the word (words) in the scope of graphic design. The emphasis is put on the visual part of a trademark." http://www.trademarks-blog.eu/word-or-figurative-trademark/

Can you give examples of a "Figurative Trademark" brands?

OSM preset Brand Trademark type Wikidata Wikipedia Trademark search in EU
"amenity/fast_food/Potbelly" Potbelly Word + Figurative Q7234777 en:Potbelly Sandwich Works https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Potbelly
"amenity/fast_food/Pollo Campero" Pollo Campero Figurative Q942741 en:Pollo Campero https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Pollo%20Campero
"amenity/fast_food/Qdoba" Qdoba Word Q1363885 en:Qdoba https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Qdoba
"amenity/fast_food/Quick" Quick Figurative Q286494 en:Quick (restaurant) https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Quick
"amenity/fast_food/Quiznos" Quiznos Word Q1936229 en:Quiznos https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Quiznos
"amenity/fast_food/Rally's" Rally's ??(Not protected in the EU?) Q3419341 en:Checkers and Rally's https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic/1+1+1+1/100+100+100+100/Rally's
matkoniecz commented 6 years ago

Why trademark type and its legal status is important? We are not tagging that information.

matkoniecz commented 6 years ago

And from what I see in table name and brand matches.

bhousel commented 6 years ago

And the same name no guarantee - like this "Caffé Nero" is not member the "Caffé Nero" Company ( different logo ) So My real problem, How Can I validate "Figurative Trademark" brands?

It sounds like you are worried that users will pick "Caffé Nero" (Q675808) from the list in iD when they really mean "Caffé Nero" (a random place that just happens to be called that).

Is that a fair restatement of the issue?

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

sorry my draft english.

Why trademark type and its legal status is important?

imho:

in this case the "brand=" name is not unique!

example - amenity/cafe + Nero

The brand: "Caffé Nero" - with "FIGURATIVE trademark " - can be detected only with LOGO/Visual because "NERO" is a frequent name , and "Nero Caffé" with different Visual can be exist

Now :

"amenity/cafe|Caffè Nero" Linked to -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caff%C3%A8_Nero image

Vs.

see: https://www.nero-caffe.hu/ ( Hungarian example ) image

use case

A NEW hungarian contributor want to add "www.nero-caffe.hu" - POI to the OSM

Start typing "Nero" image

And select ...

  "amenity/cafe|Caffè Nero": {
    "count": 229,
    "match": [
      "amenity/cafe|Cafe Nero",
      "amenity/cafe|Caffe Nero"
    ],
    "tags": {
      "amenity": "cafe",
      "brand": "Caffè Nero",
      "brand:wikidata": "Q675808",
      "brand:wikipedia": "en:Caffè Nero",
      "name": "Caffè Nero"
    }
  },

And injecting bad tags

imho: this is ~ Unintended consequences

extra comments

"Caffé Nero" -has a "Green Caffé Nero" brand -> https://greencaffenero.pl/en

amenity=cafe -> Nice classes = 43 "Services for providing food and drink; restaurant and catering services; self-service restaurant services; snack bar services; café services; take-away services; coffee bar and coffee house services; carry out restaurant and take out restaurant services; coffee supply services for offices; office coffee supply services; contract food and drink services; food preparation; preparation of carry out foods and beverages; information, advisory and consultancy services in relation to all the aforesaid."

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

It sounds like you are worried that users will pick "Caffé Nero" (Q675808) from the list in iD when they >really mean "Caffé Nero" (a random place that just happens to be called that). Is that a fair restatement of the issue?

yes, this is correct.

bhousel commented 6 years ago

It sounds like you are worried that users will pick "Caffé Nero" (Q675808) from the list in iD when they >really mean "Caffé Nero" (a random place that just happens to be called that). Is that a fair restatement of the issue?

yes, this is correct.

Great! Do you agree that the solution to this issue is dependent on downstream projects like iD giving the user enough clues in the UI to make this decision?

I'd really like to show logos if this is possible. Or at least a UI hint that there is some wikidata and maybe the user can hover to view some of the information about the brand? Again, showing logos for every brand is a great stretch goal, but depends on completeness in Wikidata (and maybe this is a thing where OSMers can help).

@ImreSamu - are you ok if I move this issue to the iD repo? It seems more like something to address there.

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

@bhousel

I'd really like to show logos if this is possible. Or at least a UI hint that there is some wikidata and maybe the user can hover to view some of the information about the brand?

imho: Picture/Logo is important for choosing the correct brand.

(imho) as a long term vision:

    "tags": {
      "amenity": "fast_food",
      "brand": "McDonald's",
      "brand:wikidata": "Q38076",
      "brand:wikipedia": "en:McDonald's",
      "cuisine": "burger",
      "name": "McDonald's"
    }
    "icon": ""
    "image:logos": [
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%E2%80%99s_gr%C3%BCn_logo.svg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_Golden_Arches.svg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_logo.svg"
    ], 
    "image:outside": {
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_in_Exeter.jpg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_Liberdade_in_Sao_Paulo_002.JPG",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonalds_HongKong.jpg",
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:McDonald%27s_in_Brno_(Masaryk_Street).JPG"
    },
    "image:inside": [
      "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2011-10-25_McDonald%27s_in_Raleigh.jpg"
    ]

Maybe we can reuse wikimedia commons images: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/McDonald%27s or import image/logo links via Wikidata SPARQL

are you ok if I move this issue to the iD repo? It seems more like something to address there.

I understand, that probably I make too much noise with my fears, sorry. But if possible - please keep this issue open.

I prefer defensive solution ( and solving problems at the roots )

On the other hand

matkoniecz commented 6 years ago

ELSE not export brand= information - to the release file - because no VISUAL clue.

I would leave such filtering for users of the data.

move this issue to the iD repo? It seems more like something to address there.

Cafe Cafe - Nero Cafe brand

should make problems less likely

and/or we can import links via Wikidata properties.

Note that there is an interesting project that allows quick adding images to Wikidata entries, would be useful in adding missing properties before an import to this project - here is my query for objects around Kraków but it should be possible to create one for brands within our index https://tools.wmflabs.org/fist/wdfist/?depth=3&language=en&project=wikipedia&sparql=SELECT%20?item%20WHERE%20{%20SERVICE%20wikibase:around%20{%20?item%20wdt:P625%20?itemlocation%20.%20bd:serviceParam%20wikibase:center%20%22Point(20%2050)%22^^geo:wktLiteral%20.%20bd:serviceParam%20wikibase:radius%20%2215%22%20.%20}}&no_images_only=1&prefilled=1 (via prefilling Wikidata items section)

bhousel commented 6 years ago
  • and/or we can import links via Wikidata properties.

^ This is what I was thinking. Once the wikidata links are established, we can get all kinds of stuff through SPARQL queries. We don't need to mirror the urls or the logos over to this project.

example: fast food restaurant chains ( image, logo ) : http://tinyurl.com/y8mxc4fu

Nice! yeah this is a good start. I clicked through several of these, and I have to admit, Wikidata has pretty poor logo coverage. Another important detail is - for displaying a list of business brand presets in iD, we really want a smallish, squarish, thumbnail image. Many of the wiki commons "logos" are photos of the storefronts or of the signage, or the dimensions are all wrong.

My gut says that we would be better to do: Wikidata SPARQL -> Twitter (or other) ID -> profile photo URL (This is maybe a problem to be solved on the iD side)

I understand, that probably I make too much noise with my fears, sorry. But if possible - please keep this issue open.

No problem, I'm happy to keep it open here.. This is a good discussion 👍

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

My gut says that we would be better to do: Wikidata SPARQL -> Twitter (or other) ID -> profile photo URL (This is maybe a problem to be solved on the iD side)

I have added a twitter id to the SPARQL query : http://tinyurl.com/yc7p38hj

ImreSamu commented 6 years ago

@matkoniecz

Cafe Cafe - Nero Cafe brand should make problems less likely

We need carefully designed UI. "brand" - has a multiple meaning and context, and an average people don't know the differences.

searching http://www.wipo.int/branddb/en I have found 8 different Caffé Nero ( registered ) brand/logo image

for an average hungarian people this is a brand ( lokal, unregistered) : image https://www.nero-caffe.hu/

But not a "global brand" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand#Global_brand_variables

bhousel commented 5 years ago

Logos were added in #2422 🎉