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Bring back Future Learn's pre-calculus #789

Closed krishnakumarg1984 closed 3 years ago

krishnakumarg1984 commented 3 years ago

This issue aims to revert a decision made in PR #786 [replaced FutureLearn's pre-calculus with Khan academy's high school math]. I don't support this idea of replacing the Future Learn course with the Khan Academy one and this issue makes a case for restoring the FutureLearn precalculus course.

I believe the reasoning for this change was 'consistency' with other Khan Academy courses recommended in the curriculum. There is also an issue that FutureLearn charges for certificates and exams. Whilst this is true, Khan academy has neither of these features i.e. neither it has an exam nor provides a certificate. So, this comparison is moot.

In fact, apart from the videos, there is no testing of the concepts learned whatsoever. FutureLearn is actually superior in this regard, because it actually allows students to attempt multiple-choice type quizzes for which answers and detailed explanations are given by the instructors. Khan academy does not provide any feedback or quizzes or facilitate student interaction whatsoever. It can turn into a purely passive video watching session rather than an active engagement. I am currently taking FutureLearn's pre-algebra and can vouch for its high quality. The high ratings on ClassCentral for the FutureLearn course is an independent testimony to its quality.

In the absence of a clear-cut comparison of technical & pedagogical merits of the two courses, I am proposing to bring back FutureLearn Pre-calculus.

Elpuma commented 3 years ago

Exactly. FutureLearn Precalculus course is in fact a serious formal course, the Khan Academy one, feels like a survey kind of course with no knowledge verification.

krishnakumarg1984 commented 3 years ago

Yes, and that PR in question was suddenly merged, and came totally out of the blue. In fact, it contradicts a main contributor's thoughts on the matter they just stated here just a few days back.

The same contributor approved that PR which replaced it with the Khan Academy course. Strange!

kedicode commented 3 years ago

The statement that there are no quizzes or testing on Khan Academy is completely false. I am currently taking many courses on Khan Academy to supplement the intro cs and getting ready for the core cs. Khan academy is used by countless organizations and educational institutions. Khan academy includes countless sample exercises and quizzes and unit tests along with placements exams. Those that make overarching statements that clearly don’t account for what the reality is are not doing any of else any good. I support the idea of replacing the pre calculus course with the one on khan academy.

Regards

On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 22:53 Jose Rodriguez notifications@github.com wrote:

Exactly. FutureLearn Precalculus course is in fact a serious formal course, the Khan Academy one, feels like a survey kind of course with no knowledge verification.

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krishnakumarg1984 commented 3 years ago

@kedicode Apologies. i have not been on Khan Academy since 2015. At that time, there were no quizzes, but just videos made with tablet handwriting by the creator, Salman Khan. High quality content obviously. I am happy to retract my original statement if this has indeed changed in the recent years. Is there feedback provided to student's answers to the quizzes? Are explanations provided? FutureLearn's instructors have explanatory text for the quizzes.

Nevertheless, that still leaves the open question of why the main contributors merged a PR without public consultation, especially after mentioning the high ratings of the Uni of Padova FutureLearn course just a few days ago.

kedicode commented 3 years ago

@kedicode Apologies. i have not been on Khan Academy since 2015. At that time, there were no quizzes, but just videos made with tablet handwriting by the creator, Salman Khan. High quality content obviously. I am happy to retract my original statement if this has indeed changed in the recent years. Is there feedback provided to student's answers to the quizzes? Are explanations provided? FutureLearn's instructors have explanatory text for the quizzes.

@krishnakumarg1984 No worries man. No harm done, I am just passionate about a good platform when I come across one.

krishnakumarg1984 commented 3 years ago

@kedicode That's quite fancy. Thanks for updating me. Have you tried the FutureLearn course? The content is indeed of high quality. It looks like they are evenly matched head-to-head.

What I am disappointed is about is the sudden vacillation without public RFC/consultation to replace a course which they had recommended just days ago.

waciumawanjohi commented 3 years ago

Just so that we are all on the same page, the curriculum has been altered so that prerequisites of high school math point to the already existing FAQ question, How can I review the math prerequisites?

The pull request that you reference was pointing out that in one place (the FAQ) we recommend students use Khan Academy to review high school level math. That reflected our years' long practice of directing students to Khan Academy in the OSSU chat rooms when students asked how to brush up on math.

This is not to diminish the University of Padova course. I am glad to hear @krishnakumarg1984 's endorsement. And if a consensus builds that we should switch the recommendation for just the precal prerequisite, I am happy to merge that in.

So OSSUnians, weigh in! We have a wealth of good options. Should the prereq section of calculus point to the UofPadova course? Or simply to our FAQ? Or to something else entirely?

spamegg1 commented 3 years ago

Hey all, I made the PR, and I don't feel strongly one way or another. I took neither pre-calculus course. I think both options are fine. I just responded to some complaints on Discord. PRs can be made and merged quickly if they are not a "substantial change". That's how I saw it, and that's what happened. (In my defense, pre-calculus is not part of the curriculum, but just a recommendation.)

Apparently this was very important to some folks and required a bigger discussion. Thanks for taking the initiative and bringing attention to it! All the feedback helps, especially at the beginner stages (which is much harder to "calibrate" correctly to people's needs).

Please feel free to discuss and make a PR accordingly! (You might want to consider recommending both options, it doesn't have to be either/or.) You'll get the nice "Contributor" badge next to your name!

I'll be stepping out of this. Good luck!

rachel83az commented 3 years ago

I am not familiar with FutureLearn's precalculus but I propose that instead ASU's precalculus be used.

https://ea.asu.edu/courses/precalculus-mat-170

It uses the ALEKS platform (which is exceptionally good, IMO) and it does not cost anything to audit the course. I know it says it costs $425 but that's only if you want actual college credit for it. You can audit the course at no cost by not paying the $25 initial fee and upgrading. https://ea.asu.edu/how-it-works

marioSilvestri3 commented 3 years ago

Hello, I come by way of a random tweet from MIT and wandered into this thread, so forgive me if I'm out of place here. I've bumped up against OSSU over the past few years as I was deciding how to learn computer science (I decided on WGU). Anyways, wanted to suggest that y'all could put more than one course and let the student have options. If courses are hotly contested then they all probably have some merit to one type of learner or another.

QueensDog commented 3 years ago

+1 on Kahn academy. I completed the precalc course and found it very good. There are lots of problems and it encourages you to retake until you have it down. It is definitely algorithm based to test you hardest where you are weakest, and never seems to ask you the same question twice, no matter how many times you retake the unit tests. If you are stuck on a problem it can guide you through step by step, but does not give you "credit" for answering a question you got help on. You can also ask for guidance on questions you answered correctly to see how they did it. I found that surprisingly useful as you learn other strategies to answer a question. All in all, very good. I have not taken future think course, so I can't compare. I'm not a supporter of suggesting multiple precalc courses and letting the student pick. How would they know which one to pick without doing them both? I think stick with one that meets the criteria, and Khan seems to do that very well.

waciumawanjohi commented 3 years ago

This has been open for a few months. In that time: 1 person has supported the change to the FutureLearn course. 2 people has supported keeping Khan Academy. 2 people have advocated having multiple options. 1 person has suggested a course from ASU.

There is not a consensus for this change, so I am closing the issue. I will note that there has been ongoing discussion of the ASU course in the Discord. I will be interested to see a discussion of the relative merits of Khan Academy and ASU for prerequisite math once there is a critical mass of OSSUnians familiar with both platforms.