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Add alias "Has a specialized point" for "Has a point with a unique neighborhood"? #920

Open StevenClontz opened 1 day ago

StevenClontz commented 1 day ago

See discussion at #856.

I feel like the dual property "Has a point with a unique neighborhood" of "Has a generic point" needs a more obvious alias representing that duality. So while "Has a specialized point" is not in the literature, I wonder if it's appropriate to add it to $\pi$-Base as an alias (not our canonical name)

In #856 there was discussion of "Has a most specialized point". But since we don't say "Has a most generic point", maybe "Has a specialized point" is fine?

prabau commented 20 hours ago

Let me try to explore the concepts related to the specialization preorder on a space $X$.

Specialization/Generalization relation

Let $x,y\in X$. If $x\in cl\{y\}$ (equivalently, $cl\{x\}\subseteq cl\{y\}$), one says:

The notation for this is always the "squiggly arrow": $y\rightsquigarrow x$ (it goes from more generalized point to more specialized point).

The relation "is a specialization of" is a preorder. The relation "is a generalization of" is the reverse preorder.

Now, as explained in the wikipedia page, there are two conventions when defining the "specialization preorder"; it is meant either as the "is a specialization of" preorder, or the "is a generalization of" preorder.

For definiteness, let's pick $x\le y$ to mean $x$ is a specialization of $y$ (i.e., $y\rightsquigarrow x$). As a particular example, given a preorder $(X,\le)$, one can form the Alexandrov topology on $X$ with the open sets being the upper sets. The more specialized points will be further down and the less specialized points will be further up.

Maximum, maximal, etc

Given any preorder $(X,\le)$, one says that two elements $x$ and $y$ are equivalent (notation: $x\sim y$) if $x\le y$ and $y\le x$. (For the specialization preorder, that would correspond to $cl\{x\}=cl\{y\}$, that is, $x$ and $y$ are topologically indistinguishable.)

One also defines:

Applying this to the specialization preorder

Let $(X,\le)$ be the specialization preorder (so $x\le y$ iff $y\rightsquigarrow x$).

(1) Some equivalent formulations for " $x$ is maximum element for $\le$":

(2) Some equivalent formulations for " $x$ is maximal element for $\le$":

(3) Some equivalent formulations for " $x$ is minimum element for $\le$":

(4) Some equivalent formulations for " $x$ is minimal element for $\le$":


In light of all this, since "$x$ is a most specialized point" already feels ambiguous between (3) and (4), it looks that "$x$ is a specialized point" has an even less clear meaning. Every point is a specialized point of some point, maybe of itself, maybe of elements topologically indistinguishable from it, maybe of still other points, even if the point does not satisfy (3).

GeoffreySangston commented 19 hours ago

I think 'other' may as well be removed from all of the characterizations. The possible candidates I see are:

I do see the term 'special point' appearing in the contexts of the spectrum of a valuation ring (which I know almost nothing about so forgive me if this is silly). This post says the prime ideals of a valuation ring $R$ are totally ordered by inclusion, so $\mathrm{Spec}(R)$ will have a generic point and a point which specializes every point, which seems to be commonly called the special point. The following pages are examples of this usage

While researching that, I found an nlab page defining focal point. A focal point of a space is a point for which the only open neighborhood is the entire space (i.e., the concept we're discussing). This page includes the fact that a spectrum of a ring has a focal point if and only if the ring is a local ring. Unfortunately, 'focal point' is another heavily overloaded term on Google scholar, and I didn't see any papers on Google scholar using it in my very very brief search. Nlab does list two sources on the page though, but I don't have access to them. In the talk page for Nlab, Todd Trimble asked if anybody uses this terminology besides Freyd-Scedrov (one of the two sources).

Edit: I searched through the citing sources for a book by Freyd-Scedrov for "focal point" and did find a paper using it https://arxiv.org/pdf/2112.10198

prabau commented 19 hours ago

I like your suggestion "Has a point specializing every point" (= second bullet in the text for P202).

prabau commented 19 hours ago

Note: #821 is still pending and has changes involving P202. Any changes here should make sure there are no conflicts.

StevenClontz commented 8 hours ago

I see no reason to do this until #821 is merged, so no worries there.

I see on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_point that "special point" is a thing ("closed point" would not be great in our context). But I also see at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zariski_topology#Examples that "special/closed points" are not unique. (oh and @GeoffreySangston caught that too)

So I think "Has a point specializing every point" is the way to go as the new alias.

GeoffreySangston commented 8 hours ago

What do we think about including the nlab 'focal point' page as a reference? It is the same exact concept after all.

StevenClontz commented 8 hours ago

I think adding a link to the description sounds reasonable. (It's also worth considering whether nLab should be a valid reference in the refs: but that discussion is out of scope here.)

I also think "Has a focal point" isn't a bad alias to add either. I cannot find that "Geometric Logic" book cited there, however.

GeoffreySangston commented 5 hours ago

The following appears in Section C1.5 page 523 of Johnstone's Sketches of an Elephant: A Topos Theory Compendium Volume 1 (2002)

By a focal point of a space $X$, we mean a point $x$ whose only neighborhood is the whole of $X$. [...] We say a space is local if it has a focal point; this name derives from the fact that the prime spectrum of a local ring is a local space (the focal point being that which corresponds to the unique maximal ideal of the ring).

prabau commented 5 hours ago

I am not quite sure. My gut feeling is that pi-base was mainly concerned with topology and should not get too far afield into other areas line commutative algebra, algebraic geometry, etc if there are alternative ways to express a topological concept. But I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts about this.

It is true that "generic point" comes from algebraic geometry, but it has become used quite a bit in topology itself and is convenient way to express things.

I like "focal point". But is it a one-off thing that was used in Johnstone a papers about commutative algebra mainly? Or is it used also in purely topology papers? It seems it would be worth to check. Just because one person has used it somewhere may not make it worthwhile to add here if the terminology is not widely used. But I do like "focal point".

Curious to hear your ideas about this.

prabau commented 5 hours ago

(out of scope: I think nlab may not be suitable as an official choice for refs:. We can discuss separately.)

prabau commented 5 hours ago

FYI (related to my comment above):

https://zbmath.org/?q=ut%3Afocal+point+cc%3A54 https://zbmath.org/1196.54070

zbmath only shows four articles related to topology and mentioning "focal point" as a keyword. And the meaning is a completely different one, something in dynamical systems (an abstraction of the usual focal point of a parabola it seems). It seems that in topology if the terminology is used at all, it is usually with a different meaning.

prabau commented 4 hours ago

I think it would be a good idea to mention "focal point" with Johnstone/nlab in the text itself. What I have doubts about is making it an alias. But again, I could be persuaded.

danflapjax commented 52 minutes ago

Note: #821 is still pending and has changes involving P202. Any changes here should make sure there are no conflicts.

Those changes were just pulled in #922, so there won't be any conflicts. 👍