More Moon Cities

[Baobobafet]

Was thinking about other bases that might one day populate the moon. These might make a nice addition to the moon's sole city, Tranquility Base. This could allow for local trade options between such bases and offer a means of income for a starting pilot.

Location, location... Polar colonies: - Shackleton Crater, was apparently just dismissed as a likely candidate for such a base due to lack of enough water being found there. The lunar polar regions are still considered prime realestate for such potential bases. Other non polar candidates might be Copernicus or Tycho. There are also 3 craters named after Armstrong, Collins and Aldrin just to name a few.

[Baobobafet]

Interesting link and pdf on locations that are of scientific importance for lunar bases.

http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/onlinebks/ResourcesNearEarthSpace/resources16.pdf

[Ae-2222]

The moon's and other planet's starports can be added to/changed. Feel free to submit a pull request:). The Terrain has probably changed many times on all planets since the starports were added so they are likely no longer in optimal positions, in terms of being near interesting locations. Earth, in particular, could probably use an overhaul as most locations are on fairly featureless coastal areas.

[Baobobafet]

Thanks Ae-2222, Sounds like a plan :) Anxious to see when the larger moon height map mod comes out and whether or not that will change things dramatically in terms of available locations.

[Ae-2222]

Anxious to see when the larger moon height map mod comes out

I was waiting until people in the community had organised themselves through the wiki. (Where/who to host/manage files etc. - sourceforge is a possible hosting option). I've added a wikisend link to the hi-res heightmap in the mod page for the time being.

Another consideration in placing starports based on geographical locations is that the moon's rotational offset needs to be visually tweaked by changing the lua custom systems definition so the named locations are on the side facing Earth.

[Baobobafet]

Yeah bit of a pigs breakfast finding files and where to post right now :) But I'm optimistic things will ultimately get sorted out.

In terms of finding the moon's relative latitude and longitude, is there any available surface map picture for the Pioneer moon? (preferably including any higher res mod :) A surface relief map overview with Pioneer lunar co-ods could be useful for discussion in positioning elements on the front and rear surface.

Other useful things for darkside navigation would be artificially illuminated areas (maybe a few beacons and lights) Hopefully there is a huge crater on the far side that can be used as a radio telescope.

Looking forward to ship search light implementation. That will make a lot of impromptu dark landing areas more safely accessible.

Also I really think the moon city should have a shield like a ship's shield but blue. One big giant hemisphere covering the city. No collision mesh just a glow. This could be explained away as a an energy shield that simply reduces cosmic rays to a system that helps support a low level oxy environment under it. Mainly it would more clearly differentiate non atmospheric environments and make moon cities look more realistic IMO.

[Baobobafet]

Just back to say that new moon height map rocks! :)

[Ae-2222]

A surface relief map overview with Pioneer lunar co-ods could be useful for discussion in positioning elements on the front and rear surface.

Google Earth on moon mode would be useful. Google Earth depicts the moon as a globe making it easier to match features (it has locations of major features).. It's always possible that the 0 longitude used by NASA people (the heightmap data was processed from NASA's LOLA data from the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter mission) isn't the same as what ever map you'll be using (unsure). It will probably help to match where the zero longitude is in Pioneer (by placing a starport) to the map you are working with and work from there.

There's a non-globe version here where you can type feature names into the search box.

It should be kept in mind that the colour fractals need to be adjusted a bit, and won't match up to images.

Increasing the radius of the moon might be the simplest way to see that the correct side is facing the Earth, come to think of it:)

Looking forward to ship search light implementation

Lights migrating to models/terrain based on proximity is the particular feature (might require a scene data structure). Something for the future I imagine, and will also enable craft lights to illuminate landing pads/stations and vice versa. With regards to lights, the next thing in terms of priority might be having the 4 brightest stars/planets be light sources.

moon cities look more realistic IMO

Skyscrapers on airless worlds are 'placeholder' :D Domes, other habitats are all possibilities, requiring some art.

Just back to say that new moon height map rocks! :)

Nice to see it is working fine:) Awesome data by the LRO people.

[Brianetta]

Other useful things for darkside navigation would be artificially illuminated areas (maybe a few beacons and lights)

Just want to be sure that you're aware - the "dark side of the moon" is a figurative phrase for the side we never see from Earth, not a literal phrase. It gets the same amount of light as the front of the moon. Unless by "darkside" you just meant "night."

[Baobobafet]

Thanks Brian, yeah there's a great photo from Clementine, I think, making that abundantly clear. But it IS easy to forget that little factoid.

Ae-2222

On those links, I am familiar. Here are some nice alternatives: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/LMP/ http://www.lunasociety.org/atlas/index.shtml http://cseligman.com/text/moons/moonmap.htm http://www.oarval.org/MoonMapen.htm http://cseligman.com/text/moons/moonnear.htm

Btw, any luck with finalizing the moon radius number?

I have started working on a general lunar map of interesting nav points and locations that might be worth discussion. (will post when ready)

Glad the present cities are placeholders for more realistic stuff (kinda figured something like that), Some bases need be nothing more than a simple landing pad with periscope tower and elevator leading to underground facilities, lava tubes, mines (similar to the new pad and launch tower) A small dome or two nearby could be an option.

Guess I'll have to have to engage my patience on the ships getting lights anytime soon. But I will happily console myself knowing that planets will soon be giving off there own light :)

Looking over the system map I can see the moon is slightly skewed off Earth's orbital plane, nice, Is libation modeled to allow for changing visible areas on a full moon?

Also I'm guessing that Mare Crisium should still primarily be viewed as in the upper right hand quarter of the full moon from Earth.

erm... assuming nothpole was up

Bones: I'm a doctor, not a moon shuttle conducter!

[Ae-2222]

Btw, any luck with finalizing the moon radius number?

The moon's radius should be fine. I was suggesting temporarily making the radius huge by changing lua so the moon is visible very clearly from Earth. Then altering the rotational_phase_at_start field in lua until the correct side was visible from Earth. Those links give good detail of craters which should help:)

Also I'm guessing that Mare Crisium should still primarily be viewed as in the upper right hand quarter of the full moon from Earth.

The full moon should look the same as from Earth, so it should be in the same position. I was suggesting that the rotational phase and maybe the axial tilt be adjusted until the full moon looked right:).

Is libation modelled

Yep, libration is the just the result of orbit shape, rotation, axial tilt etc. which are modelled.

For planets currently the latitude and orbital_offset lua fields control the plane of the orbit. They should probably be renamed to something more appropriate in future.

[Baobobafet]

Pic of moon showing libration and Coords system... some interesting stuff.

Central Base Nearside (or use Tranquility Base as central hub) Bruce Crater Near 0' Latitude and Longitude on Moon (a few degrees North of geographic center)

Having a nav/mining/science bases at all four geographic points as well as central bases on both sides (totaling 6 bases) a minimum number with landing facilities. All other places could simply be navigational references or points of interest that could simply be labeled.

Nav limb bases should be recessed from the edge of moon to give any science station at rear, such as Daedalus, minimal interference. Proposed navigational limb bases representing NSEW as seen from Earth.

Farpoint West on moon is Grimaldi (or a bit further west is Riccioli Crater a few degrees South of western limb) Farpoint East on moon is Langrenus Farpoint North on moon is Plato Farpoint South on moon is Clavius

Deadalus Crater seems to be the popular choice for a telescope location, almost exactly at the center of the far side.

Pic of Daedalus Crater Apollo11

Optional: Tranquillity Base might have satellite landing pads 20 miles from the main city at Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins craters. Eventually these pads could be part of a localized commerce system delivering raw materials to the main hub. Allowing a starting shuttle pilot a means to make a buck simply by ferrying goods from the satellite pads to Tranquillity Base Central. Of course the more remote the base, the more lucrative the profits on any cargo/passengers delivered directly to the hub or vice versa.

Pic of Tranquility base -w- Armstrong, Aldrin & Collins craters.

So here's a high contrast black & white moon map showing a number of interesting locations for Nav points and some possible base candidates. (please feel free to edit file or suggest any places not marked)

Download link for above Photoshop file with layers for Mountain, sea and crater names. Pioneer Moon Map.7z http://www.mediafire.com/?p1a2im3r21j6pe2

Bones: I'm a doctor, not a moon shuttle conducter!

[Baobobafet]

Updated Photoshop file with Bruce and Saha craters. Also left some fonts active for editing purposes.

"Saha Crater" has also been proposed as a good place for a lunar observatory.

http://www.mediafire.com/?wkddil8rdiuzw0u

[Ae-2222]

Having a nav/mining/science bases at all four geographic points as well as central bases on both sides (totaling 6 bases) a minimum number with landing facilities. All other places could simply be navigational references or points of interest that could simply be labelled.

At the moment we have just the standard starport, variety will come later when more art is done, and different classes of locations are developed. At the moment, since starports are major trade centers they would need to be scattered about the moon for best effect I think?. A few of the well known regions/features could have starports named after them to act as a map for people.

Generally, having label-able/bookmarkable locations, will be useful including for exploration/spying type things where the locations of interesting features can be traded/sold etc. When/if implemented I imagine custom systems could have default nav points. It's another thing for the future.

Download link for above Photoshop file with layers for Mountain, sea and crater names. Pioneer Moon Map.7z http://www.mediafire.com/?p1a2im3r21j6pe2

Updated Photoshop file with Bruce and Saha craters. Also left some fonts active for editing purposes.

Nice work on the moon map..with regards to maps the locations are more important. Once a few supporting features are developed, I plan to look at generating in-game low res maps of planets during system generation - for a lot of uses, including navigation/mining. It might be possible to process and provide names for the very obvious features like seas/craters so they are available to missions. This will likely not be for a while and results depend on how much computational time could be spared and whether there are any unforeseen issues, so no guarantees as with all yet-to-be-implemented features:).

In the mean time, it might be an idea to create a mod package with the hi-res heightmap, maps, your moon lander lua mod etc. If you have a wiki account it's possible to zip them up and add a link to the wiki page.

[Baobobafet]

The map feature you mention would be terrific and invaluable database knowledge for treasure seekers as well as any who are planning for an off-world vacation trip :)

All things in their time I guess. I don't have a file host for that size file right now .. but if I can find one, no prob. Otherwise, I may have to defer to you to upload such a package (since you seem to have a host for your height map, atm).

One tiny feature that might be implemented relatively quickly, could be to add visual markers (labels) for the lunar north and south poles. This would go a long way in helping people to find their way around up there.

Considering Base Design The idea of a city/base that has NSEW markers of some sort might be another efficient way to display important nav info.

The markers could be as simple as a flashing light on a tower & ground marking with a N,S,E or W. These could be placed N,S,E & W just outside the city's limits.

If runways of any sort are used near bases, these could follow a clearly marked N,S,E,W orientation, helping to further intuitive directional awareness of the local environment.

[Baobobafet]

It occurred to me that perhaps even screenshots might be helpful for nav orientation in such a mod package, so I made up a couple more to add to the nearside/farside pics.

These are 2 polar screenshot images I matched up to a High def map here: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/LMP/lmp3/ Maybe together with the Bruce and Daedalus crater screenshots, they might serve as a sort of interim lunar nav reference...

[Ae-2222]

The idea of a city/base that has NSEW markers of some sort might be another efficient way to display important nav info.

While this might help at cities, for general activity near the surface of planets, a map overlay would be useful. This might be a local area map that rotates with the way the craft is pointing, there might be a second overlay of a larger scale map of a good portion of the planet that has a pointer indicating the way the craft is pointing.

Maybe together with the Bruce and Daedalus crater screenshots, they might serve as a sort of interim lunar nav reference...

I was thinking that creating starports there might help in positioning new starports. Probably we might need starports at the north/south pole merged into the game since the moon doesn't have obvious poles.

I don't have a file host for that size file right now .. but if I can find one, no prob. Otherwise, I may have to defer to you to upload such a package (since you seem to have a host for your height map, atm).

I'm just using the free wikisend.com which has a 90 day expiry which is sufficient until people get organised I guess.. feel free to upload it somewhere until then. Filedropper.com also allows large files, not sure about their expiration policy.

[Baobobafet]

Okay, I will look into a place to host the file. (I will try zip everything, pics, instructions into one drop in Moon_mod.zip file)

Polar Starports would make sense as nav references. Something (anything) needs to be there to more easily determine North from South or any other direction for that matter. Planetary navigation aids that will be able to give pilots reliable readings on ship /planet relative positioning shouldn't really be considered a luxury.

I made up a compilation of all 4 screenshots and a few extra nav reference points to help out the lunar lost ;)

[Baobobafet]

Google Drive to the rescue! <- could be a big deal for hosting all those mods.

Had some issues with 7zip as a mod archive format. Perhaps a problem in the pipe recognizing recursive dirs since the hires moon loaded from the mod - but no lander with it's one nested dir. (just guessing) When I turned to regular zip for the mod - it worked fine.

Anyways, if there is anything that might need to be added or changed in this package to increase it's fun factor - anytime is a good time for ideas or improvements :)

[Ae-2222]

Google Drive to the rescue!

Nice, I see it added on the mods page:)

Had some issues with 7zip as a mod archive forma

I think zip is supported as it's the most common.

might need to be added or changed in this package to increase it's fun factor

There was an excellent landing option, to recreate the original landing replete with the module in orbit, being worked on by Branetta, Philbywhizz and Robn that didn't quite make alpha 26. Probably it could be salvaged as a mission and added to the mod.

[Baobobafet]

Ya, that would be awesome having the command module with LEM attached in orbit, and would save a bit of time getting the LEM over Ol'Man Moon. Perhaps we need to nudge a few peeps :)

Some obvious and not so obvious adjustments that I can think of:

1. Re-addressing the thrusters so LEM flys forward.
2. Making forward/rear views more useful.
3. Increasing the size of cargo capability to further max out the range of flight control difficulty levels.
4. Decreasing the LEM's default fuel level to barely allow flight to a some local target landing locations (with no cargo & with cargo maxed) Alternatively, change fuel consumption setting to burn more fuel. Thereby adding a fuel/ time limit in reaching such preset locations. Although losing all that fuel weight constantly will cause the LEM to increasingly fly lighter and lighter - perhaps annoyingly so. So maybe the answer lays somewhere in the middle of the two above ideas.

Most of the above are balance issues that any input would be welcomed on, probably requiring a bit of trial and error to get right.

[Ae-2222]

Ya, that would be awesome having the command module with LEM attached in orbit, and would save a bit of time getting the LEM over Ol'Man Moon. Perhaps we need to nudge a few peeps :)

robn has the latest version of the branch here under apollo11. If you have github installed you can just checkout experimental branches very simply (it's possible to just download the lua files which have changed but it's more awkward). @Brianetta has done some work on recreating the actual mission, but it's not shared yet, so you might want to look later (I think the craft balancing is complete in robn's branch).

Given that the core concepts in flying a lander are essentially what is used in controlling Newtonian spaceships, some related missions and what if scenarios would make for a rare, gripping, and thematically very suitable advanced tutorial in the game itself eventually.

The last post really belongs on a topic of its own though:) so feel free to make one.

[Baobobafet]

100% agree. I will start a new topic as you suggest on how such missions can be used as a sort of space camp for Pioneer. (hmm lots in those links to explore :)

I uploaded my save of LEM in orbit over the moon for people to cut to the chase when wanting to use the lander. Orbit is unpowered and slightly eccentric Alt 1864 -2044 km speed 1.64 -1.49 km/s.

The fuel level is set at a bit more challenging level, although still pretty forgiving. I usually add a bit of chaos to my well aligned approach over Tranquility Base just to see if I can salvage a bad situation. Changes in orbit and picking your descent time can all change the level of difficulty. (I guess the game clock can be used here to set descent times))

Unfortunately until there is some further structure around such challenges, they will either be hit or miss and probably difficult to repeat, never mind trying to quantify any useful results from them - other than "lucky or not". Having said that, at least it will increase the fun factor for some.

Just to steer back to topic: You mentioned: "It should be kept in mind that the colour fractals need to be adjusted a bit, and won't match up to images."

So are these still to be tweaked? There are some interesting color moon images out there as well as one showing the moon from space with a bit of a tan color (i can upload it here if you like) Just so you know I have no problem making any new versions of those HiRes globe maps ;)

[Baobobafet]

Some more interesting links: http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/space/stories/nasa-plans-moon-way-station-for-deep-space-missions http://www.jaxa.jp/projects/sat/selene/index_e.html http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2007/11/20071113_kaguya_e.html

[Baobobafet]

Lunar bases or select spacestations should ideally support a telerobotics suite. This could double as a pilot and combat training tool and even allow for a full Pioneer tutorials.

Secondly as a telerobotics suite it could be used to explore hazardous environments or to extract dangerous or valuable cargo and minerals from the surface of especially radiation high or enemy hostile planets. It may require unique equipment (telerobotic extractor and ore carriers with heavy shield &/or defense capabilities) - or it may simply be an environment you would prefer not to risk your ship into without doing a recon first. Tele robotic probes and spyships have been discussed in the past for use on various ships. This would make such items also available at spacestations and bases.

[Brianetta]

@Baobobafet Design comments like this really should go on the mailing list.

[Baobobafet]

Brianetta: Following up on your suggestion... Btw, in regards to Apollo mission scripting ect. or co-ordinating on what is required to realise this as a mission or mod., what is the best course from your perspective?

[Ae-2222]

I will start a new topic as you suggest on how such missions can be used as a sort of space camp for Pioneer.

I was thinking more that tweaking the LEM balance/mod is important enough to get it's own topic:)

As for results of that discussion about missions, that aren't implemented immediately, should go in the wiki - it makes it much easier for people to find things in 6+ months time, especially for those who weren't around to follow the discussion. Detailed ideas could go in the wiki first before bringing it up to the mailing list (and talk pages can have links to work-in-progress pages and pages containing your personal Pioneer notes/sketches/resources etc.)

As for tele-robotics, they could be useful in a lot of areas.. probably a feature that needs lua-equipment/new-ui when it wil be simpler to add new interfaces for equipment (control, cameras etc.).

[Baobobafet]

Some interesting pics of primitive dome shaped buildings on a very unique landscape :) “Two Towers” – geodesic dome accommodation modules Concept by Matias Perez also: Bulk Carrier with Biomimetic Stabilization (Water Spider) – Concept by ANDC

http://blueseed.co/concept-vessels/

[Baobobafet]

Some interesting LRO pics and info that could give some rationale to the placement of bases and outposts on the Moon.

Maximum illumination sites Lunar South Pole:

http://the-moon.wikispaces.com/south+pole

Coldest Place in the Solar System?

http://www.diviner.ucla.edu/blog/?p=232

Apollo 11 descent stage:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/news/first-year.html

[robn]

Closing, nothing to action.