Missing Greek and Coptic glyphs

[Doc73]

Dear Developer, I would notice that some glyphs are missing. They are very important, because are used as classical greek numbers. They are the glyphs from unicode tables 03D and 03E, in particular: 03D8, 03D9, 03DA, 03DA, 03DB, 03DC, 03DD, 03DF, 03E0, 03E1.

These glyphs may be useful too: 03D1, 03D5, 03F1 end 03F5.

Cf. https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0370.pdf

I attach a screenshot of my test file, with which I test the fonts:

Thank you very much in advance, Domenico

[mbudaj]

For my texts the addition of ϖ (03D6) would be useful, thanks.

[psb1558]

I'll have a go at these.

[psb1558]

About U+03DF: there's disagreement about the shape and size among the various fonts that have it. For example, Gentium has an angular shape vertically extending from nearly as far below the baseline as p up to nearly the height of b:

while Brill has a curved shape that sits on the baseline:

What do you think is the best shape?

[Doc73]

This glyph is the letter Koppa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koppa_(letter)).

About the shape I think that the angular one fits better with Junicode, but... choose according to your taste! :smiley:

[psb1558]

Okay, thanks. For comment, here are a few lowercase characters from this collection:

[psb1558]

Koppa.

[Doc73]

Here is my test file, for your convenience:

% !TeX TS-program = xelatex
% !TeX encoding = UTF-8
% !TeX spellcheck = it_IT
% !TeX root = Root.tex

\documentclass[11pt,b5paper,article]{memoir}
\setlength{\parindent}{0.5cm}

\usepackage{fontspec,unicode-math}
%\defaultfontfeatures[Junicode Two Beta]{Numbers=OldStyle, RawFeature=+onum}
\setmainfont[]{Junicode Two Beta}
\newfontfamily\greekfont[Script=Greek,Ligatures=TeX]{Junicode Two Beta}

\usepackage[babelshorthands=true]{polyglossia}
    \setdefaultlanguage{italian}
    \setotherlanguage[variant=ancient]{greek}
\usepackage{realscripts}

\begin{document}
\chapter{Italian Environment}

-- REGULAR ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω

\textit{-- ITALICS ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω}

\textbf{-- BOLD ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω}

\textit{\textbf{-- BOLD ITALICS ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω}}

1234567890

Numerals \greeknumeral{1} \greeknumeral{6} \greeknumeral{40}
\greeknumeral{90}
\greeknumeral{100} \greeknumeral{900} \greeknumeral{1000} 

Realscripts π\textsuperscript{α} T\textsuperscript{exc}

No Realscripts π\textsuperscript*{α} T\textsuperscript*{exc}

\dagger ⟦\dots⟧

\textasciigrave\dots\textasciiacute

※

\chapter{Greek Environment}
\begin{greek}
-- REGULAR ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω

\textit{-- ITALICS ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω}

\textbf{-- BOLD ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω}

\textit{\textbf{-- BOLD ITALICS ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς αβγδεζηθικλμνχοπρσςτυφχψω}}

1234567890

Numerals \greeknumeral{1} \greeknumeral{6} \greeknumeral{40}
\greeknumeral{90}
\greeknumeral{100} \greeknumeral{900} \greeknumeral{1000}

Realscripts π\textsuperscript{α} T\textsuperscript{exc}

No Realscripts π\textsuperscript*{α} T\textsuperscript*{exc}

\dagger ⟦\dots⟧

\textasciigrave\dots\textasciiacute

※
\end{greek}

\end{document}

%%% Local Variables:
%%% coding: utf-8
%%% mode: latex
%%% TeX-engine: xetex
%%% TeX-output-dir: "build"
%%% TeX-master: t
%%% End:

[psb1558]

Thanks--I'll use it for testing.

[psb1558]

Also a good bit of variation in U+03E0 uppercase Sampi. Which is best/most suitable (all of these are from fonts that I think of as authoritative)?

[Doc73]

Type a).

Type e) for italics (perhaps)

[psb1558]

Lowercase letters roughed in. Comments very welcome, since I'm no kind of expert on Greek.

[Doc73]

For the third glyph, the so-called digamma, I'd prefer a square shape, as, for example, here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Digamma_uc_lc.svg#/media/File:Digamma_uc_lc.svg

Many many thanks for your kind reply to my requests

[psb1558]

Like this?

[Doc73]

Great! Very nice

[azeini]

Is the lower case alternative theta (ϑ) part of Junicode again? It was initially, and I understand, it was removed later. It would really be good to have these extra Greek characters back in Junicode. It's really good to see Junicode developed again. Thanks for your work.

[psb1558]

They were part of Junicode years ago, before I moved the Greek into its own font. Now my thinking about Greek in Junicode has changed, and I'm very open to requests for added characters.

[Doc73]

Thanks also from me for your renewed interest in Greek! I really like your font for its "Doric" design and I hope it will be completed in time to be able to use it for my critical edition. :smiley:

[azeini]

They were part of Junicode years ago, before I moved the Greek into its own font. Now my thinking about Greek in Junicode has changed, and I'm very open to requests for added characters.

This is really good to know. There are a couple of Greek characters referred to as symbols, such as 'GREEK THETA SYMBOL' for 'Character: ϑ U+03D1'. It would be great if those could be included. The ones I know, are: Ϗ ϐ ϑ ϒ ϓ ϔ ϕ ϖ ϗ

[psb1558]

There are also a couple of quite different shapes for U+03DA uppercase Stigma. Brill is on the left, Gentium on the right. Which do you think would be more suitable for Junicode?

[Doc73]

I'd prefer b).

Which lowercase stigma did you chose?

[psb1558]

Second in line here (but the digamma has been replaced, as discussed above):

[Doc73]

Excellent! Thanks! Other fonts use a too big lowercase stigma

[psb1558]

Here are the requested caps, roughed in:

For uppercase Digamma, some fonts (including the widely respected Brill) simply echo the letter F, while others have minor differences. Gentium, for example, lengthens the middle bar for Digamma (on the right):

Do you have a preference here?

[psb1558]

Some serif typefaces also put a serif on uppercase Stigma, so it harmonizes with other serif caps. So this is a possibility:

[azeini]

I am not a specialist in Greek, so I will stay out of the detailed discussions. I use the Greek alphabet and that theta for Bactrian and other Iranian languages. Much appreciate that Junicode will once again become a one stop font. I asked the EUP to replace their series font for my book with Junicode which they did :)

[psb1558]

@azeini: I'm glad! As Junicode 2 is still in development, glitches are possible. If you run into any problems let me know, and I'll prioritize fixing them.

[azeini]

Thank you so much. I am using it in Debian as 'Junicode Two Beta'. A couple of recent articles and presentations have all been fine.

[Doc73]

For uppercase digamma I dislike the serif shape, which resembles F

[psb1558]

For Digamma, would you prefer something more like the lowercase? And do you have a preference in favor of or against a serif on uppercase Stigma?

[Doc73]

I prefer the not serif shapes of uppercase stigma and digamma.

[psb1558]

Okay, then, here's the compleat collection of added glyphs:

Now on to the italic!

[Doc73]

Thank you very much again!!!

[psb1558]

One more thing: I need to provide for any accents that might be attached. Can you tell me which of these characters (if any) can take an accent, and if so, which accents and where they're attached (e.g. top center, bottom center)?

[Doc73]

These characters don't have accents, except when used as numerals. In these cases, we have: 6: Ϛʹ, 90: ϟʹ, 900: ϡʹ

Ancient numerals 6:~\greeknumeral{6}, 90:~\greeknumeral{90}, 900:~\greeknumeral{900} 

[psb1558]

Do people always use the prime sign U+02B9, or do they sometimes use other characters?

[Doc73]

I don't have the technical expertise to answer this question, but I can refer you to the unicode tables.

[psb1558]

Maybe you're not a technician, but this is what I needed to know!

[psb1558]

These are included in version 1.056, now in the repository.

[Doc73]

Great! Thank you very much! Only a thing: \greeknumeral{6} use the uppercase stigma, instead of the lowercase. Actually, all fonts behave like this and I don't understand why...

[Doc73]

P. S.: https://github.com/reutenauer/polyglossia/issues/587

[psb1558]

I'm glad you got a quick resolution at Polyglossia.

A last thing, and then I'll close this issue. The rule for Junicode is that any letter with both an upper- and a lowercase shape must have a small cap. So in the next version (whenever it comes), these will be available via smcp and c2sc:

And also the italic.

[Doc73]

Many thanks for all your job again!