Friends vs Contacts

[ghost]

This issue is partly a question.

Contacts in Tox are called 'friends', which is not ideal in my opinion. Friend is a broad definition everyone interprets differently. Not everyone people might want to talk to using Tox have to be their friends, and from the little (but hopefully representative) experience I have, they use instant messaging to talk to a wide range of people, whether they are family, classmates, friends, coworkers, or complete strangers.

This stroke me when I started translating qTox into my language and noticed that using the term 'friend' might sound weird in some cases (at least it does to me). Famous example of an atrocious service using this same naming is Facebook.

I'm aware that there is something called Single Tox Standard and that qTox probably aims to follow that, but the issue has already been reported, without receiving a reply in over a year, it seems.

I made a comment yesterday, in hopes that someone might notice the existence of the issue, but I'd like to ask here if I should translate 'friend' as 'friend', or if I can use an alternative word, such as 'contact'.

[TheSpiritXIII]

Well put. :+1: +1

Although the biggest issue will be changing the code that uses variables named "friend" which are many. Changing it in the GUI may make it ambiguous for coders unless the naming everywhere is changed.

[zetok]

@Tirifto

It's not an issue. And it has been ignored, since:

1. There will be no change to this name.
2. Since few months STS is a bit ~dead. It's still useful to some degree, but..

Please, go figure why Tox uses "friend" when fb does that too, rather than just demanding something to be changed.

When it comes to translating - translate it to whatever fb uses → https://github.com/tux3/qTox/wiki/Translating#general-tips-and-guidelines

Additionally, you may have noticed how qTox includes e.g. Pirate language translation. If you wish to have that kind of translation, e.g. Lang - Pirate feel free to do so ;)

[ghost]

@zetok

Please, go figure why Tox uses "friend"

I tried, but I couldn't think of anything sensible. If it's just because Facebook (and perhaps some other 'evil' services) uses the term 'friends', then I wouldn't call that a good reason. Average user is not tech-savvy, but they should be able to read and write. If we used the term 'contact', it might not be as similar to other services, but it would be more neutral, appropriate and I'm sure everyone would understand its meaning.

If the main reasoning behind all interface design would be familiarity, qTox would end up as an exact Skype clone, interface-wise. That is not the case at the moment. Tox looks different from other instant messengers I have used, and there are some things I would not call familiar and haven't seen them in similar programs. I still found it very intuitive, though. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if the program is familiar, as long as it's simple and easy to use. Sometimes, familiarity comes hand-in-hand with this, but sometimes it does not, and I believe this is one of those latter cases.

Therefore, I assume that qTox is not just inheriting design from Facebook, and like I said, I couldn't really find a good reason to why 'friend' would make a better choice. I'm also aware that a lot of features and designs are being discussed and changes proposed here. I thought that this could be improved upon, and since I don't think this was extensively discussed before, I opened this issue.

There will be no change to this name.

I'd like to express my disagreement and know why will there be no change. I believe there should, details above.

[DanTheBritish]

If Tox is used by a bank to let traders exchange current market tip-offs, then the two users wouldn't be 'friends' but colleagues. Since the software can't differentiate between friends, colleagues, acquaintances, etc., contact makes more sense.

Telegram, Skype, every phone released now-a-days, refer to them as contacts.

[zetok]

@Tirifto

If it's just because Facebook (and perhaps some other 'evil' services) uses the term 'friends', then I wouldn't call that a good reason.

That alone is a pretty good reason to use it. People are exposed to this word, are familiar with it, even those who don't use fb/$other_service directly.

So what that $insert_name_of_"evil"_company_here is using this word? Are you going to limit yourself and others by claiming that just because they use particular word it's bad to use it? Could you please explain how exactly that should work? What next would you propose to remove/change just because someone/something you perceive as evil uses it?

Average user is not tech-savvy, but they should be able to read and write.

Note that being able to read ≠ being able to understand.

If we used the term 'contact', it might not be as similar to other services, but it would be more neutral, appropriate and I'm sure everyone would understand its meaning.

Bullshit. If I have to spell it for you, contact is a shitty word - replacing friend with it is a bad choice. Just because a definition of a word seems to fit better in a particular setting, it doesn't really mean given word is better for UX.

If the main reasoning behind all interface design would be familiarity

Familiarity is important. That being said, most important factor is UX.. and sadly, technical limitations.

Therefore, I assume that qTox is not just inheriting design from Facebook, and like I said, I couldn't really find a good reason to why 'friend' would make a better choice. I'm also aware that a lot of features and designs are being discussed and changes proposed here. I thought that this could be improved upon, and since I don't think this was extensively discussed before, I opened this issue.

Basically, at this stage most of stuff could be replaced/alterered - you're right to think that - but it has to be change for better, not for worse.

It wasn't really discussed, because (AFAICT) most of people simply intuitively grasp why using "friend" is better. And those who don't, usually are aware that their UX designing skills aren't that good.

I'd like to express my disagreement and know why will there be no change. I believe there should, details above.

Why.

Meaning. Meaning of a word in regard to what people feel, how they perceive things, how it alters their POV. Meaning of it in a particular context, and in regard to world-wide impression. Meaning of it when used in Tox.

Not some shitty definition.

@LapFox

If Tox is used by a bank to let traders exchange current market tip-offs, then the two users wouldn't be 'friends' but colleagues. Since the software can't differentiate between friends, colleagues, acquaintances, etc., contact makes more sense.

I would argue that it makes even less sense, since the most important function of a Tox is to provide privacy - you don't really need privacy when you're talking to some strangers, or people who could use "info" you're providing against you, in which case you simply wouldn't provide that info - ergo, you don't need privacy in those scenarios. Note that bankers are relatively small group of people.. but at the same time everyone has friends and family. Friends and family with whom they would want to talk privately when they feel like it.

Tox is free software - every bank trader has enough of money to pay someone to "patch" client they are using to have "contacts" instead of "friends".

That being said, do you really think that bank traders aren't human? That they don't feel and perceive world in the same way you do? That they don't have friends? Or maybe you think that they are stupid enough to not be able to understand that friend is used for the same reason social networks use it?

Also, what I wrote to @Tirifto

[ghost]

@zetok

Are you going to limit yourself and others by claiming that just because they use particular word it's bad to use it?

I was stating that some evil services use it, as an example. I'm not saying it's a reason we shouldn't use that word, since that would probably be very unwise.

People are exposed to this word, are familiar with it, even those who don't use fb/$other_service directly.

Both 'friend' and 'contact' are common words in probably every language. I'm assuming that people are going to know and understand both of them.

Note that being able to read ≠ being able to understand. If I have to spell it for you, contact is a shitty word - replacing friend with it is a bad choice. It wasn't really discussed, because (AFAICT) most of people simply intuitively grasp why using "friend" is better. And those who don't usually are aware that their UX designing skills aren't that good.

I still can't see how 'friend' is better. If you're saying that you are experienced in the field of UX, I'd appreciate if you explained why exactly is 'friend' a better choice.

Meaning. Meaning of a word in regard to what people feel, how they perceive things, how it alters their POV. Meaning of it in particular context, and in regard to world-wide impression. Meaning of it when used in Tox.

What's wrong with the meaning of 'contact'? Why would someone not perceive 'contact' as contact?

everyone has friends and family. Friends and family with whom they would want to talk privately when they feel like it.

And probably a bunch of people they know who are neither their friends nor family. And they need to be able to talk to them in privacy, too. For whatever reason. Whether they're friends exchanging intimate info, business partners discussing classified things, people who just met not wanting anyone to snoop on them, or people trading drugs. Privacy can't be prioritized for one group, it's a basic right for everyone and anyone.

[ProMcTagonist]

literally no one is going to fire up qtox and suddenly get really mad that their colleague or acquaintance is being referred to as a friend

[ghost]

@ProMcTagonist That's probably true, but I still think we should come up with something better. Even very minor improvements are improvements! :)

[ProMcTagonist]

Your entire argument hinges on friends being worse even though it's more familiar and comfy because it's not as accurate. This is irrelevant, because 99% of users don't care, which you've just acknowledged as "probably true" yourself.

[linux-modder]

@Tirifto @LapFox why would 'friend' be more intimate ? One thing about qtox or any tox is the fact that while its a nice ui /ux most people could give two shits what the name for connections are....and the naming IS NOT meant to care about the personal connection level of the user (AFAICT at least)..

[ghost]

Facebook made a good work degrading the online meaning of the word "friend" to something close to "thing I want to get updates from". In fact, a friend can be an institution, a fictional character, a restaurant, etc. In that context, Tox is more exact in terms of calling potential human being a "friend".

[DanTheBritish]

@zetok

I would argue that it makes even less sense, since the most important function of a Tox is to provide privacy - you don't really need privacy when you're talking to some strangers...

There are cases where you might, but I'm not gonna bring it up since it's just semantics.

Note that bankers are relatively small group of people..

Granted, was just an example I could think of at the time. Another example would be a newspaper source contacting a journalist. I think both examples are good examples of when end-to-end encryption (and general security) is a great idea, since they could contain sensitive information that they don't want rogue traders / snooping bosses to find out.

but at the same time everyone has friends and family. Friends and family with whom they would want to talk privately when they feel like it.

This is a good point, and I would argue both for and against it.

I'd argue for it since friends are people you hold close to you, people you think fondly of, and would therefore want to address them as such.

I'd argue against it in, say for example, a business environment, you might not want to refer to dick-hole-dave in FX trading as a friend.

In my place of work, I wouldn't consider my colleagues as friends, but as colleagues. Therefore, in the list of saved people, we can refer to them as contacts, since it addresses all types of relationship with people.

Tox is free software - every bank trader has enough of money to pay someone to "patch" client they are using to have "contacts" instead of "friends".

Of course anybody who can use grep and compile qTox could do that, :+1: for encouraging modifying the software to meet user needs

That being said, do you really think that bank traders aren't human? That they don't feel and perceive world in the same way you do? That they don't have friends?

Woah hold on a minute there, didn't mean to piss in your eye socket. That's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying that a friend is something most people would perhaps hold dear to them, however hypothetical dick-hole-dave in FX trading wouldn't get such a title. Ref paragraph above for how contact covers both friends, colleagues and other social titles.

Or maybe you think that they are stupid enough to not be able to understand that friend is used for the same reason social networks use it?

They don't think about why language is chosen, they just use the software.

[ghost]

Your entire argument hinges on friends being worse even though it's more familiar and comfy because it's not as accurate. This is irrelevant, because 99% of users don't care, which you've just acknowledged as "probably true" yourself.

@ProMcTagonist I wouldn't say that something shouldn't be done/changed just because most people don't care about it. From my personal experience, most people don't really care about software freedom or privacy, and yet that doesn't make it any less important, and Tox with its mission still exists. Even if almost nobody pays attention to a detail, that doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't be improved upon.

and the naming IS NOT meant to care about the personal connection level of the user

@linux-modder That's also why I'd like to see a more neutral name.

[linux-modder]

@Tirifto, why can't the 'set alias' feature suffice then you label them in your listing of folks however the hell you want including 'dick-hole-dave' if so desired ...

[linux-modder]

Why doesn't 'set alias' feature suffice ?

[ghost]

Why doesn't 'set alias' feature suffice ?

@linux-modder Because that's unrelated to the issue: 'set alias' only changes individual name for each contact; they would still be referred to as friends by qTox. I'm trying to say that contacts in general should be called 'contacts', rather than 'friends' (in qTox interface).

[ProMcTagonist]

@Tirifto When the only point of a change is supposedly to appease users who want it, no users wanting it is a pretty good reason not to change it, actually.

[ghost]

I discussed this during the day with other people. We came to the conclusion that: a) "contact" is an outdated, boring and "Windows-ish" word. b) "friend" is Facebook's trademark and other software using it still sounds Facebook-ish, not modern c) Tox is the future and could use a new, better word*. Something that doesn't need to be translated, like chat or spam.

*when it's beta software, used on a daily basis by hundreds of thousands

[ghost]

@kehugter I'd not be too concerned about the words being used elsewhere, since any software may decide to use any word at any time, and in my personal opinion they shouldn't really affect the word's meaning.

I've not used Windows for a long time, so I don't know how much 'contact' is being used there nowadays, but I believe it's a common word for e-mail clients, address books, other IM software and some social networks (I think diaspora* uses the term 'contact'). It comes to mind as the most common, general and neutral.

The idea of having something a bit unusual is nice, but I'm not sure if inventing new terms is a good idea. Having new words used only in one program would make the word separate, dependent and probably weird for people who don't use the program a lot. Personally, I can imagine myself saying "I'll Tox you tomorrow", but not so for "I'll add you as a Toxid!". Of course, I may be giving a bad example here. If someone manages to find a word that sounds very nice (and ideally exists), why not?

[zetok]

https://github.com/Tox/Tox-STS repo has been reanimated, and discussion on this matter can and should be moved there ;)

[aaannndddyyy]

+1 for "contacts"

[TheNain38]

+1 for "contacts" too

[Hasshu]

Since this issue is still open... +1 for "contacts".

[SkyzohKey]

Also +1 for "contacts", that's already how Ricin display them because not all the people you have in your contact list are your friends.

Calling everyone a friend is living in Bisounours world.

[mirek967]

+1 for "contacts" too

[aaannndddyyy]

Ok, renaming "friends" to "contacts" should be trivial. And it looks like many people prefer "contacts" over "friends". It's not a high priority thing, so I understand this will not immediately be changed, but there is also one thing that's needs to be resolved too: how to call "friend requests" then? If it's not "friend" but "contacts", it can't be a "friend request"; yet "contact request" sounds awkward. Any suggestions?

[SkyzohKey]

@aaannndddyyy "Invitations" ?

[zetok]

"Invitations" ?

Invitations to where?

[SkyzohKey]

Dunno, that's how it's called on Facebook, but maybe not the best example here. But "Contact request(s)" looks fine...

[aaannndddyyy]

"invite contact" instead of "send friend request" sounds fie to me. Invite to what? To chat on qTox, of course.

[SkyzohKey]

+1 @aaannndddyyy

[Hasshu]

Invitations to where?

To join their brethren in jolly cooperation.

Personally, I think it should be either "Send contact request" or just "Invite" - "Invite contact" sounds a bit awkward.

[aaannndddyyy]

that's fine too

[Diadlo]

'Friend' is typical word for IM. Closing since there is no activity

[zetok]

Well then, would you mind making a PR with the changes?

[zetok]

Whoops, a bit of miscommunication, reopening.

[Hasshu]

Closing since there is no activity

@Diadlo Not to sound rude, but... following that logic, you have over 400 other issues to close.

[Diadlo]

@Hasshu It's not the real issue

[Hasshu]

@Diadlo Erm... And what is?

[Diadlo]

@Hasshu Holywar

[Hasshu]

@Diadlo Heh. Well, it's taking place for a good reason.

As a compromise, we could add an extra checkbox to the settings (User Interface -> Contact list -> Refer to contacts as "friends"), which would toggle the wording of some lines.

Should be enough for a ceasefire, methinks.

[zetok]

@Hasshu I don't think that an option is needed. If there is interest in the change, someone will make a PR with it and it will be merged. If there is no interest in the change, this issue will be closed after some time.

[Hasshu]

@aaannndddyyy @SkyzohKey @TheNain38 @TheSpiritXIII What do you say, contributors?

[SkyzohKey]

@Hasshu such option in settings would be confusing for the end user. I advocate for using contact word as that's how Ricin/Konv displayed it. Not every one is your friend so...

[Hasshu]

I advocate for using contact word as that's how Ricin/Konv displayed it. Not every one is your friend so...

@SkyzohKey I concur. Actually, my question was about the hypothetical pull request.