Weapon Mod Feedback

[Nmmoriarty]

I figured we should get this started. My first suggestion is about how Core mods are handled. Firstly, all these really deal with ammo let's call them ammo mods.

Secondly, do we want to include something to make it so you can have different ammo types installed, or make ammo "powers" a different system altogether? I guess the question here really lies in how powerful/important having the right ammo type is. While this certainly was the case in the Bioware games, they seem of diminished importance in this adaptation. I don't think this is a bad thing; we want to make a game which is balanced and fun, not just mindlessly port the Bioware game into a pen and paper setting (Looking at you, MEd20).

Thirdly, how piercing ammo works is a little wonky -- values for how "thick" cover is was never addressed in 5th ed, just how much you're getting. Ostensibly, how good your cover is depends also on what material it is made out of (A paper screen door is going to provide no substantive cover bonus, logically), so I think we could simply it and just have piercing Ammo drop cover bonuses a level, with half cover dropping off entirely. This might be a little powerful, so I'm looking for suggestions on this one.

Lastly, and kinda related to the first point, this leaves shredder ammo (and piercing depending on how we want to go) being the only one with tiers of power. I think we should align it so either piercing and shredding have no tiers, or give other ammo type tiers. Depends on how complicated we want to get.

Another thing I was looking at was if we should have another limit on mods outside of just one per slot, but I haven't done the math on those yet to see if you can make some truly broken stuff with the mod system as it is.

[Nmmoriarty]

After reviewing the Weapon Mod system, I figure the best way to test this is to make the most absurd damage combination I possibly can.

• The highest damage non-heavy weapon is the old standby, the Black Widow, coming in at 4d10 (average 22 damage), and Heat 1.
• Be a Solider, level 20, Dex 20, take the Sniper subclass and Sniper Fighting Style. This provides +11 to hit (with advantage under certain circumstances), +5 to damage (an additional +12 if you are using the Deadly Aim subclass ability and an additional +6 if no enemies are within 10m), an average 2.5 extra crit range with Adrenaline Rush, and five attacks (one base, three from extra attack, one more from Snapshot, though the wording on Snapshot is unclear).
• Take the Sharpshooter feat. You can trade 5 attack bonus for 10 damage. This goes well with stealth for the advantage on attack rolls to make up for the attack bonus penalty, so let's assume you also picked up Stealth as a skill from something, probably the Skilled feat. While we're at it, let's pick up Sleight of Hand too and get the bonus on Rapid Reload.
• Pick up the Tactical Scan power for 19-20 crit threat range. Since Turbocharge is going to get a nerf, I'm not 100% sure on how this shakes out, but that could provide an extra 2d10 damage on the Black Widow, and negates the need to reload.
• Slap on Concentration Mod III for an average crit threat range of 17, High Caliber Barrel for +3 attack and damage, Magazine Upgrade V for +10 heat, and an ammo mod of your choice, since none of them really provide bonus that isn't situational.

Let's blow everything we've got on this. Use Tactical scan, be hiding from the target, use Deadly Aim, use Sharpshooter, use Turbocharge.

Our grand total is a Black Widow that rolls five attacks +9 to hit with advantage, hits with 6d10+36 damage (average of 69 damage), has an average crit range of 14-20, a heat of 11, and +11 to Rapid Reload checks. On average, one of those five attacks hits is a crit (30% chance to crit), giving us 12d10+72, average 138 damage on a crit. I'm sure you could do even more average damage with Infiltrator (Operative), but I haven't math hammered that yet.

Okay, wow. While your crit range with Infiltrator is only 16-20 and you only get one attack, you are throwing 6d10+10d6+18 for 86 average damage, doubled on a failed CON check (172 damage), which I assume stacks (and not quadruples) on a crit, leading to 258 damage. Ouch.

[Duneday]

Yeah Infiltrator is by far the most damaging class by a long shot. I just used it in a comparison to a salvo specialist actually. Just because you mentioned it though, the extra attack from Snapshot is only for the first attack action you take in an encounter. Therefore you only get 5 attacks the first round after that it would be down to 4. Just a clarification.

[queryluke]

Ammo mods

RE: Core naming When drafting these up, I think I had a few others in the "core" slot, and didn't realize the final product was all ammo mods. I'm ok with a name change.

RE: Powers vs Mods Using mods instead of powers is a stylistic change that I'd prefer to stick with. I had them as powers in a very early version but struggled with a lot of factors: are they tech or combat? If tech, how do soldiers use them. Can adepts use them at all? Also, the application of an indefinite weapon ammo change (like in ME2 & 3) felt more like magic than sci-fi. So I feel back to wanting the ME1 version of ammo upgrades. The first attempt was the thermal clips, but TCs don't actually generate ammunition, so I've been wanting to move to something else for a while.

It's never been my intent to make combat a complex puzzle. Cryo ammo might be great against a hoard of Husks, but shouldn't be required to survive. The ammo mods (and mods in general) are more of a way to replace the lack of magic items and give variety to weapons.

RE: Piercing I had the level drop off as well, but couldn't justify why a piercing mod would let you target a creature behind full cover. Perhaps the answer is a simple flat bonus to +2 to hit a creature behind half or three-quarters cover. Which effectively negates the AC bonus of half, and cuts down the AC bonus of three-quarters. This is pretty much what it was before, except it was a flat +2 bonus (which I thought was too powerful).

RE: Shredder & Piercing vs. Others As for the inconsistencies with shredder, piercing and the others, I was rushing to get these out and didn't think that through. I first used the ME3 mods as the basis (which have a shredder and piercing mod), then ported the old thermal clips over. So it was a rush job.

Damage totals

Sadly (for me as a game designer), I think this points out an issue with the synergy of class features and not with weapon mods. Both really, but even without the mods, the Infiltrator has a slightly lower chance to hit & crit and deal 3 less damage. Another thing is that armor mods can increase +hit and +damage, which could really get out of hand.

Potential fixes

1. Deadly aim: yeah 1/2 soldier level seems a bit too powerful. This could simply be "gain the Sharpshooter trait, if you've already learned the sharpshooter trait, learn a different trait instead."
2. Sniper fighting style: could be a smaller damage bonus +1, and instead of advantage at advanced a +2
3. Turbocharge I'm leaning towards the latter of the options I proposed, which would mean it requires a bonus action for +2 RoF until end of turn.
4. Rapid reload: can switch this back to a bonus action (which it was), which would limit reloading in the same action if Turbocharge was applied
5. Limit all mods to a single level +1 level. This would prevent any combination of armor/weapon mod from having > +4 to hit/damage (which would align with 5th edition). Magazine upgrade could double heat, making 1 heat weapons 2 heat weapons.

Given all these changes, I think a high heat weapon would be a better option. Soldier with 2 adrenaline rushed can take more advantage of Turbocharge. So, really I'm not sure this fixes anything.

The real problem.

The real cause is the weapons. It's something that's been lurking in the back of my head for a while. Weapon damage in 5th edition only ever does 1dX damage with the exception of the greatsword doing 2d6. And legendary weapons only ever have +4 damage/attack bonus. The DMG does have some futuristic weapons doing 3d8.

But I'm not sure how to get enough variety with a range on 1dX-3dX. It's something I'm happy to get more input on, as it would require a major adjustment.

[Nmmoriarty]

The difference between the Soldier and the Infiltrator here, @Duneday is that the Infiltrator gets one attack, needs the target to fail a Con save, and has a 20% crit chance. The Soldier gets five attacks (and due to the Magazine Upgrade can take advantage of all of them without needing to reload... for two turns of shooting), 35% crit chance. The Soldier's damage per round and average damage is greater than the Infiltrator's.

Both are still an absurd amount of damage as it stands, and will melt even 20th level enemies in a round. Hell, Soldier could melt five of them, making combat a paltry affair.

[Duneday]

First thing: I was pointing out the rule for snapshot, which would only trigger for your first round of attacks. Meaning that Soldier would get 5 attacks for the first round and then 4 after that. Second: My point on the infiltrator admittedly was based on my build which involves multiclassing, I should have clarified that point, but it wasnt what I had posted as a main idea so I didnt think too much about it. You are correct on the damage outputs though. They are pretty ridiculous, infiltrator ill say isnt too far out of bounds of 5E with Assassin rogues. In translation Soldier picked up a few things that tweaked its balance a bit far from its Fighter base.

[Nmmoriarty]

I think that Magazine Upgrade is a bit too abuse-able with it just adding a flat heat value to a weapon. I think there should be two ranks of it, one giving 50% more heat (round down) and one that gives 100% more heat.

[queryluke]

Proposed changes:

• Rename "core" type to "ammo"
• Cranial Trauma Mod: Limit to one level (1 additional damage die on critical hit)
• Power magnifier: Limit to one level (currently lvl 3 has potential to add +9 with some subclasses).
• Concentration Mod: Limit to one level (19-20 crit)
• Piercing Mod: Rename piercing ammo. Has same toggleable as other ammo mods. Ignores 2 AC if target is behind cover.
• Shredder mod: Rename shredder ammo. Has same toggleable as other ammo mods. Changed damage type to slashing. An unprotected, organic creature that is hit by this weapon looses 2d4 hit points at the start of it's next turn due to bleeding.
• Quick release magazine [edit 4/23/2018, see #239]: one level, "You may reload as a bonus action"
• Magazine upgrade: Limit to 1 level. Weapon gains a bonus to heat equal to 1/2 it's base heat score. (useless for 1 heat weapons)
• Extended Magazine: New. Weapon gains a bonus to heat equal to twice it's base heat score (limited for 1 heat weapons)
• Heat sink: remove...why add more rolling?

The only downside is that now there are only 2 magazine mods. Not really sure what to do about this. I guess we could combine the magazine and ammo mods. You get the choice of new ammo, more shots, possibility of faster reload.

[bpmcpherson]

Magazines are the most simple component to upgrade, so simply having different ammo types and a larger magazine is fine.

[Nmmoriarty]

Alternatively, if we want to limit on how many mods you can have on a weapon. And I agree with @bpmcpherson, if we had a magazine upgrade that essentially let you switch to another ammo mod, that might be interesting -- but that all depends on how much you wanted ammo type to be a tactical choice.