queryluke / masseffect-5e

Mass Effect Universe mapped onto Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition
https://n7.world
GNU General Public License v3.0
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Tech spells #334

Closed TheMarmotKing closed 5 years ago

TheMarmotKing commented 6 years ago

I have yet to start a full review of the tech spells yet since review of lvl 3 and 4 biotic spells isn't complete yet.

However I was giving it some thought and I wanted to bring up an idea.

This may be too complicated to impliment, but I think it's worth discussing.

What if we had some sort of 'prepared spells' system for tech? The system would work like this. Your Omnitool has only so much memory to hold tech spells to use at a time. The amount of memory you have goes up each level. These spells can be switched during a rest.

This does two things. First is let tech classes learn many more spells, but still have the balance of not using all of them at any given time. Since tech spells are all, for the most part, even in terms of power, it gives versatility. Personally I think this evens the playing field with biotics that have some truly absurd high level spells.

Second, it opens the opportunity to buff certain spells and make them more powerful beyond just spending more points.

Purely as an example, we could make incinerate cost 1 memory and flame thrower cost 3. Then, buff flamethrower. So if a engi wants to use flamethrower at a lower level he can, and it will be great. but at the cost of not having nearly as many to choose from during the fight.

Doing this would require a increase in the number of spells tech classes learn, buffs/changes to most tech spells to make them scale beyond tech points spent, and figuring out a balanced tiering of memory cost.

I'm not much help on the numbers game,and this would be a look of numbers work. I am absolutely fine with dropping the idea simply because it would be a stupid amount of balancing, but I thought it interesting enough to share.

queryluke commented 6 years ago

I think this is a really neat idea, and I wish I'd had it a year ago when it could have evolved with the system. The concept is really interesting, essentially your omni-tool has a max "load", something I've seen in other sci-fi systems (specifically, Interface Zero). It makes the player balance power and versatility. Its very similar to the spell system and prepared spell, but in 5th, preparing a higher level spell has no additional cost.

Here is how I would probably want to approach it:

What I like:

What concerns me: This is a huge step away from how the Mass Effect game classes work. Other Mass Effect TRPGs either use a progression or point buy system, which is much similar to the game. I didn't want to go down that road because it wanted spells and tech powers to feel more like 5th edition. The compromise was the "Advanced Options" and that you don't need to prepared spells. This puts Tech more in the "5th edition camp" so I'm concerned players might not like how divergent it is from the games.

That said, if I were making this game for me, and me alone, I would totally implement this new system. I like the variety and versatility it adds. But I'd like to hear feedback from others.

TheMarmotKing commented 5 years ago

Since the biotic update is out, I'd be willing to start looking at the combat abilities and tech spells. The thing is there is much less variety in tech spells,and I want to see if we are going to go ahead with using something like the suggested tech system

bpmcpherson commented 5 years ago

So would there be a cap on the number of uses as there is now or would they all resemble something similar to biotics in uses?

TheMarmotKing commented 5 years ago

They would resemble biotics in the way that certain spells are better than others, costing more memory. They would still retain the tech point system for spell usage

bpmcpherson commented 5 years ago

It seems unnecessarily complicated to have both the tech points and "load cost". Seems like the system could more-easily be an adaptation of the Wizard spell system from 5e where you "load" spells in the morning and that's your allotment for the day.

The biotics system reminds me of Warlocks where they have a learned list and can replenish them after a short rest.

queryluke commented 5 years ago

I've been thinking about this all week and have run a few "war-room" scenarios in my head and on paper.

I agree with @bpmcpherson that having a "max load" and tech points is too complicated. We need to avoid infinite uses and I do enjoy the scaling opportunities of X-cost tech spells. So I think we should move forward with reviewing tech spells using the current tech spell system.

But the underlying needs are:

  1. Variety in tech spell mechanics
  2. Versatility of Tech users (especially engineers)

Variety in tech spell mechanics

I am very open to reducing the number of X-cost tech spells. While an interesting mechanic, its not enough to be the major feature of a class. So, @TheMarmotKing, while you review if you think there are opportunities to make a set cost version of a spell, then go ahead an mention it and we can sort out the details while we review.

Versatility of Tech users (especially engineers)

Since most tech spells deal less damage than biotic spells, I think it makes sense to allow even more opportunities for engineers (and probably sentinels and infiltrators) to learn spells. This makes those classes (especially engineers) more of a "toolbox." They won't deal a ton of damage but they'll have a lot more utility than other classes.

bpmcpherson commented 5 years ago

I believe versatility will be the key to tech users. They have healing, buffing, debuffing, combo priming, etc.

TheMarmotKing commented 5 years ago

I'll try to start the tech review shortly, been busy since school started back up. Plus, the tech review is a bit wierd since most of the damage spells are the same thing with different effects. Versatile yes, but also slightly redundant in some cases. I'm thinking the review will primary be figuring out how to make damage abilities stand out.

queryluke commented 5 years ago

@TheMarmotKing No stress. I've been swamped with work as well. I'll go ahead and add all the spell reviews, that way people can comment at their leisure and you don't have to feel like you need to do everything in one go.

I'm going to break up the spells by X-cost (spells that allow you to spend X tech points) and N-cost (spells that have a fixed tp cost).

We'll start with the X-cost spells, an for each one we can assess if it should be an N-cost with additional features (to break up the redundancy).

queryluke commented 5 years ago

@TheMarmotKing @bpmcpherson @Swampson

I've been doing a lot of thinking on how the Tech system works, and I honestly think it needs an overhaul for v0.9.0. Here are my thoughts (organized as much as possible). I'd love to get your feedback.

Problems

Damage

20th-lvl Adept, theoretical average damage output from spell slots

Spell Slot Level SS Count Avg Damage / Slot Total Damage
1st 6 15 90
2nd 5 32 160
3rd 4 49 196
4th 3 64 192
5th 3 79 237
Total 872

By comparison, a 5th edition Wizard can output 786 average damage per long rest, something else that should probably be adjusted, but that's for a later date.

20th-level Engineer, theoretical average damage output from X-type Tech points 50 tech points @ 1d12 / TP = 50 (6.5 + 3.25**) = 487.5

That's about 55% of what an Adept can do. Even if we nerfed adepts, to Wizard outputs, it's only 60%. * best case scenario ** D&D way of calculating avg damage of AoE spells is avg dmg + one half avg dmg

Now I'm not saying engineers need to output as much damage as adepts. They have the benefit of choosing how much to pump into a spell. They're also hardier, they can heal, the regain some TP on a short rest, and they have a large library of combos (which can deal more potential damage). But note this is a best case scenario. Based on the actual spread of X-type single target/aoe spells, it's really more like 325 damage.

Max Tech Points

I've grown to dislike this mechanic. It reads like a forced way to prevent tech users from dropping 50d8s on a bosses head, and that's exactly why it's there. The mechanic doesn't have a fictionalized interpretation. Its also one more thing for the player to track.

TP to SS ratio

Based on the above numbers, a first level spell slot is worth about 2.5 tech points. Thus to even cast an X-type spell at "1st level" you need to spend 2-3 tech points. Meaning a 20th level engineer can't cast anything higher than 3rd or 4th level spell. So, in reality, the X-type spells are limited in their range of potential (i.e., an adept can still cast a 1st level spell at 5th level, which is essentially the same mechanic)

Concepts to keep

Concepts that set apart Tech casters from Biotic casters, and I think its important to keep them.

Versatility

I feel this is the bread a butter of the tech users. The ability to adjust their resource consumption based on the situation. I think the only way to achieve this is via the Tech point pool.

Increased combo usage

Speaks for itself

Larger toolbox

Right now engineers don't even have the largest toolbox. They get 18 opportunities to learn spells + 1 additional for engineer's efficiency. Adepts get 16 opportunities w/ 5 cantrips. Something else to improve on.

Proposal

This is sort of a build up

D&D Casters

There are 2 primary caster types in 5th edition: Learn-as-you-go (Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Bard) and Prepared (Druid, Cleric, Paladin). The former learn spells as they level. The latter know ALL the spells available to their class but must prepare them for use. They can only have so many prepared based on their class level.

Introducing Load and Memory

Essentially what @TheMarmotKing was getting at. If we introduce a "Load" mechanic for tech casters that works like prepared spells in 5th edition. Here is some sample text explaining the mechanic.

Engineers use a highly modified Omni-tool executes programs, a.k.a. spells, for a variety of combat effects. Your omni-tool has a limited amount of memory for which to store spells. The total memory is equal to your Intelligence score modifier + your engineer level and multiply the sum by two. You load engineer spells onto your omni-tool that are available for you to cast, choosing from the engineer spell list. When you do so, subtract the load cost of the spell from your omni-tool's memory. When you load an advanced version of the spell onto your omni-tool, subtract an additional amount as indicated by the advanced version spell text.

We can mess with the right amount of total memory later. But ultimately I want to settle on a number that allows engineers to potentially have more available spells than adepts.

Tech spell load

Treat the load cost like a spell slot level. So a 1-load spell deals about as much damage as a 1st level spell. Advanced options would have a minimum of +1 load. But this gives us more opportunity to create +3 load versions that have more powerful effects.

Tech point cost

Each spell would explicitly say how many tech points it costs: "Spend 2 tech points to..." Another way for us to add variety, because a 2tp cost doesn't need to be 2 load.

Higher level casts

Each spell would have a similar "higher level casting" mechanic as a biotic spell which allows the player to invest more tech points to output more damage, projectiles, etc. Unfortunately, we still need an artificial cap on how many tech points you can spend on a spell, I think this can be equal to the player's proficiency bonus.

Final thoughts

In one sense, this complicates the spell casting mechanic of D&D. But it adds more options/variety for preparing spells. In a sense, it also simplifies spell slots into a single resource, tech points.

TheMarmotKing commented 5 years ago

Part of what I don't like about the current tech point system is that spells feel very cookie cutter. The damage potential varies slightly, but it ends up being the same for the most part. A load tier system fixes this issue. It also gives us an opportunity to give engineers a little more resource free options. I've started a campaign (finally, and I'm very excited), and the engineer at lvl 2 often times doesn't know what to do besides shooting. Tech points are so scarce early on, and I feel like without the cantrips biotics have and the innate better gun options infiltrator and soldier have, engi is in a wierd spot. I like the overhaul idea, and I'm looking forward to reviewing the new tech spell if this if implimented

queryluke commented 5 years ago

I've heard from @Swampson offline and he agrees this would be an improvement. I've provided an example spell with Incinerate (#368). I'll start working through the other spells this week. But we can begin thinking about the other spells with this mindset.

queryluke commented 5 years ago

Wanted to follow up with the exact memory totals the classes will have:

[edit, reducing this slightly] Engineer: Eng level + int bonus = 25 max Sentinel and infiltrator: 1/2 sentinel or infiltrator level + int bonus = 15 max

Spell load (like spell levels) will range from 1-4.

Basically means that engineers can learn or advance by an additional load every level. Sentinels and infiltrators every other level.