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raffazizzi / TEI-TEST

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Allow <idno> inside <monogr> without restrictions #113

Closed raffazizzi closed 9 years ago

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Currently, the <idno> is only permitted inside <monogr> when it is located following <title> (see http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei?view=revision&revision=4782). We would like to encode bibliographical information which does not have a <title>, but we need to use <idno> inside <monogr>.

REQUEST: permit <idno> inside <monogr> WITHOUT restrictions, i.e. without the restriction of having the <idno> ONLY after the <title>.

Original comment by: sf_user_posejavier

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

This request is the opportunity to point to the complexity of the content model of monogr. Could we simplify it somehow, maybe making it a little more flexible from the point of view of occurance restrictions. We should definitely have a more class based behavior here...

Original comment by: laurentromary

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

I don't understand how you can have a bibliographic item with no title. Please supply more details of the specific use case.

Original comment by: lb42

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Original comment by: lb42

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

They may for instance have an unpublished exercise book containing jottings, never intended to be a coherent work, so lacking a title, but which has been catalogued in a library and therefore has an idno.

I think this report is pointing at two separate issues: the requirement that a title be present, and the arbitrary restriction that idno may only appear after it. Both of these seem valid concerns to me.

Original comment by: martindholmes

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Agreed, both seem reasonable concerns, and a coherent request. Concrete examples from the reporter would be useful to focus this discussion, however.

Original comment by: gabrielbodard

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

The political comment of the day. This is an important use case for the EPO (European Patent Office). Since we missed the ISO opportunity, we may not want to leave out patents from our scope...

Original comment by: laurentromary

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

What is the issue--do patent docs not have titles? Can someone supply an example of what such a (fully marked-up) bibliographic item would look like?

Original comment by: gabrielbodard

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Let me state Martin's two issues a bit more precisely:

a) the requirement that a <title> be present in a <monogr>

b) the arbitrary restriction that <idno> may only appear after <title> within <monogr>

Regarding (a), I believe all library cataloging codes require that a title be supplied for an item (in square brackets) when one does not exist on the primary source of information of the item being cataloged. But there may be historical catalogs or special-use catalogs where items lack titles, so I am willing to allow the use of case of someone wanting to use <biblStruct> for citations to items without titles.

Regarding (b), I do not believe we should be flexible on this point. <biblStruct> is structured in the order that elements are allowed, so if you have an <idno>, it has to go at a particular point in the XML tree. If you want to arrange the components of a citation in a different order, you need to use <bibl>. The good news, though, is that if we change the content model of <monogr> so that <title> is no longer mandatory, I think this solves Javier's problem anyway.

Original comment by: kshawkin

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Hi, I will provide more details about the patent citations (without title). I also opened another Request because the needs for patent citation are broader than only the issues about <title> and <idno> inside <monogr>:

The current TEI standard does not allow us to encode the patent bibliographical citations. In the patents, the patent documents are cited according to a very well defined encoding for which the main elements are:

- Identification of a Patent Authority

Therefore, we would need to have the following structure in TEI for encoding the bibliographic information of patents:

<biblStruct type="patent¦utilityModel¦designPatent¦plant" status="application¦publication"> <monogr> <authority> <orgName type="national¦regional"><orgName> </authority> <idno type="docNumber"></idno> <date type=""applicationDate¦publicationDate"></date> <imprint> <idno type="kindCode"></idno> </imprint> </monogr> </biblStruct>

I would like to add some examples, to show the importance of having this structure for our project (see the file that I attached):

1) Normally in the patent documents, the citation of other patents is one of the most important information. This citation could identify the priority patents, related patents or simply are patents cited in the document. The bibliographical reference to these patents is done without indicating any title, but using the patent standard bibliographical codification. See the following examples

E1) In this text (from a patent) another patent is cited by: "Japanese Patent Laid-Open No. 223883/1974 E2) in this example you can see how normally the bibliographical information of the patents is provided: E3) also non-patent literature uses very often this kind of citation, see the following example:

2) I would like also to indicate that there are different citation manual styles which explicitly avoid to use the title and other information to cite the patents:

Bluebook Citation: U.S. Patent No. 6,885,550 (issued Apr. 26, 2005).

APA Citation: Williams, D. (2005). U.S. Patent No. 6,885,550. Washington, DC: U.S.

ACS Citation: Williams, D. U.S. Patent 6,885,550, 2005.

Original comment by: sf_user_posejavier

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Patent citation examples

Original comment by: sf_user_posejavier

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Javier opened a feature request at http://purl.org/TEI/fr/3513147 with the same text as his most recent comment here. We should continue discussion of that feature request there.

Javier, is there anything left in this ticket that you would like to have addressed, or can we just close it and refer to http://purl.org/TEI/fr/3513147 ?

Original comment by: kshawkin

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Hi, sorry for the delay to reply. You are right. You can just close this request and refer to http://purl.org/TEI/fr/3513147. I didnt get any reply in that request. Is there any opinion about it?

Original comment by: sf_user_posejavier

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

I am closing this ticket. Council will address the other ticket. It sometimes takes a little while for us to get to all of them, and we try to deal with the oldest ones first.

Original comment by: kshawkin

raffazizzi commented 12 years ago

Original comment by: kshawkin