[FEATURE]: SPLIT on CW - TX waveform placement

[Gary-K9RX]

When doing SPLIT on CW the TX signal should not shift to the center - it should be over the frequency where TX is. This serves two purposes: the obvious one of showing where I am in the pileup and IF I happen to miss turning SPLIT on, which can happen to us all occasionally, I can immediately tell this fact instead of transmitting and interfering with the DX station. I believe it is correct on SSB (my radio currently off due to storms).

[W2PA]

Gary - does this happen for you with CTUN off? I operate with CTUN on all the time, everywhere, and I always see my transmitted signal where it should be. When I hit the key, if I'm in Semi mode the VFO shifts but the signal peak appears right where it should be, and if I'm in QSK mode the VFO doesn't shift at all and the signal still appears where it should be. (BTW, I notice the behavior you describe if I turn CTUN off.)

[Gary-K9RX]

Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply/info. I don't use CTUN on CW, only on a few bands and on SSB. So I wouldn't know the answer. I will say I am running 2.8.11 and I had brought this up once before - I thought that it was fixed in a later version, I've tried to go back to look for version notes but other than one note on one version change didn't find it listed. So to be sure I added it here. Apologies (and thanks) if indeed it has been implemented (whether CTUN on or not). I plan on going up to the latest release version in the next few days in prep for more versions/fixes coming down the road.

[W2PA]

I don't think it's fixed, Gary - I can make it do just what you say if I turn off CTUN. And I'm running the latest code.

But I'm not sure it is something that needs fixing, so much as perhaps in need of an option. When not in CTUN mode the default behavior is to center the VFO in the panadapter - whichever VFO happens to be active. So it makes sense that if in SPLIT and VFO B is (for example) a bit higher than VFO A, that when you transmit it brings VFO B to the center. I agree with you that it'd be nice if you could visually see that you're transmitting up a bit, but that's not how normal non-CTUN behavior works (in my understanding).

I suppose it could be an option to not-center the panadapter in transmit when SPLIT and CTUN is off, but in the code I don't immediately see how it'd be different from turning on CTUN whenever you go into transmit mode.

Have you tried using CTUN on CW? I find it so nice and intuitive I never turn it off.

[Gary-K9RX]

AH! That would explain why, as I noted, it seems to work on SSB where I have CTUN turned on - I noticed it on 20 where I do use CTUN. I'd prefer not to use CTUN on CW though.... Generally because of the narrow filter widths chosen, I want to use a more narrow window - usually 18 - 24Khz. But there is often DX on CW in a range wider than this - i.e. there is no single window of that width, or even close to that width, where I'd center it for CTUN operation - and widening it means that the filter passband windows are TINY (always 200Hz or less and often as narrow as 60Hz). So leaving CTUN off seems best, at least for me, on CW. I'd think that even given the expectation that w/o CTUN the passband is centered - that during SPLIT (which itself is an exception) it would still automatically show where you are transmitting. I believe PSDR did this - it was only when I went to Thetis that I saw the change and a few times was yelled at by the dxp police.

[W2PA]

Yes, one doesn't want to awaken all the latent cops yelling UP UP UP on top of the DX. ;-)

You have a point about the passband getting visually very narrow when zoomed out to see more of the band. I've dealt with this by making my overall Thetis window very wide and zooming in to a level appropriate for the rx filter I'm using - as you say, usually less than 200Hz. There's only so much room so it's a tradeoff but I find this mode of operation quite good. I like how the waterfall doesn't smear when tuning. If I need to slide the display up or down it's easily done by dragging the top scale. And if I hit the display edge when tuning, it just shifts along with me.

[ramdor]

We always move display to transmit frequency on TX, ctun on or off, however, there are situations when it will not move the display when ctun is on. One of these is when tx frequency is in view already.

Main issue is that if we don't move, it could be quite easy to be tx'ing somewhere we don't expect to be (in another band for example). I could add an option 'dont follow TX frequency on TX' or some such. The whole code chunk related to this is quite nasty to follow txtVFOAFreq_LostFocus etc.

Richie.

[W2PA]

This makes sense, Richie. The reason I haven't noticed the display move when split in CTUN is probably that I've never operated split with the transmitter in a far-removed place from the receiver. This is the normal case when working DX, except, for cases such as when working 40m phone and the DX is down below 7100 in the international phone band. Even then, a wider display makes the issue go away.

If you add a "do not move display" option, I suggest you have a warning flag appear in transmit indicating something to the effect that the transmit signal is not visible, or out of display - something like that. There's only so much you can do to prevent an operator from shooting themself in the foot.

[ramdor]

@W2PA yes, and I had hoped to keep away from all that display shifting code for a while :) Let me know if you chaps would like this closed off or left open for now. Cheers.

[W2PA]

Given the messiness of the display code (unwanted side effects are possible), and your long-range plan to restructure it anyway, I'd say table the issue for now.

[Gary-K9RX]

Hold on ... this is not a trivial issue for using the radio when doing split - i.e. the status quo is problematic! As mentioned and the reason why I opened this is the fact that one doesn't know where they are transmitting (assuming CTUN is off)! That too, is a not good scenario as explained. Also as mentioned this worked fine in PowerSDR from what I remember. So it was there. I still contend this is a valid 'ask' as serious DXers want to know - need to know where they are in the pileup and that they are indeed transmitting in the pileup. The one exception is indeed if one is working split outside the window, as mentioned on 40M in which case a wider window takes care of seeing where the pileup is but still I'd want to 'see' that I'm transmitting there and not just see my transmit signal in the center of the screen. So I'd hope and strongly suggest it be changed.

[W2PA]

Ok - I have no preference one way or the other since I'm always in CTUN and never have the problem. But I can certainly appreciate how some might. By the way, with CTUN off I still see where I'm transmitting and that it's different from my RX frequency, it's just that the VFO line jumps around. (Edited: This last statement is not true - see below.)

If so, I'd suggest do the simple fix of allowing a "do not move" option check box, and maybe a popup flag to indicate when the transmitted signal is not visible. Would that cure the problem, Gary?

[ramdor]

ctun off, and even an ssb split will jump to middle (or should do), which like Chris is why I use ctun on most of the time

[W2PA]

Sorry - ignore my comments about not shifting with CTUN off. It does indeed shift.

[Gary-K9RX]

ok - the threat of storms has passed and I fired up the radio. I tried what you suggested Chris. I used CTUN. Indeed a) the TX shows where it is offset from the RX which is what is desired and b) I can zoom in. However for me its a non-starter since if I have for example 21.000 - 21.045 as the window ... and there is a station at say 21.005 listening up .... if I tune there, do A>B/MULTIRX/SPLIT and move TX up ... I can see where I'm transmitting but now the bandpass windows is TINY... so if I zoom in sure enough it zooms in nicely. But when I'm done working the station and need to/want to zoom back out again the center of CTUN is now that last frequency: 21.005 which means I have to set it up again. So its not as clear or easy to use as CTUN OFF.

[W2PA]

Apologies - suffering from too-many-options syndrome (and I wouldn't have it any other way). Gary, you're completely correct that when CTUN is off, the display makes you believe you haven't shifted at all even when in SPLIT. So you don't see any difference with SPLIT on or off. This leads to operator error because transmitting on top of the DX looks the same as transmitting up 3, say. The only clue you get is that the display scales slide around.

So I think the simple fix you suggested is the way to go, Richie. Let the operator check a box to prevent the display from shifting when in SPLIT. And if it's not too much trouble, add the flag I suggested above to warn about invisible transmit signal when it's out of the display.

[Gary-K9RX]

Having a check box is fine - but I'd default it checked since, again, without this one doesn't know if they are transmitting on top of the station you're trying to work. there's no case that I can think of where I'd have it unchecked.

[Gary-K9RX]

The concern about transmitting on another band is valid if the TX frequency is not displaying on screen. So a warning that one has to click off if the TX is outside the window would seem highly appropriate and not a bother since it would rarely be seen and when it is seen there would be a valid reason/concern for it to be there.

[W2PA]

Completely valid points.

The alternative is to have the default behavior, in non-CTUN with SPLIT on, be to not re-center the display on transmit, have the warning flag if the tx sig is not within the display, and have a check box to enable re-centering (with default being un-checked). Call it "Re-center display when transmitting SPLIT" or something like that.

[W2PA]

By the way (and peripheral to the main point), with a window size of 20 or 25kHz I have a happy medium where the filter width is a decent size and I also can see around me a good distance. (The filter window is indeed too tiny at 45kHz as you pointed out, Gary.) With this kind of view I almost never have to adjust the zoom in CTUN. And my Thetis window is around 2800 pixels wide. If I want a wider view, for example to see most of the CW segment, I have another bandstack entry for it.

[Gary-K9RX]

Richie (and Chris): I wasn't aware directly that CTUN allowed for display of the TX signal when split... I knew this worked on SSB but didn't correlate the fact that on SSB I had CTUN turned on whereas I didn't on CW. For reasons described above I still don't think turning CTUN on, on CW, works for just tuning around looking for activity. However, if I'm going to work SPLIT, actually work someone - turning CTUN on for that instant does work. So - Richie - I and I believe the majority of DXers would prefer to know where their TX signal is when split and I'd prefer not to be in CTUN mode ... but if it is too much work to get it there I'd agree that turning CTUN on when actually working split works and is a solution albeit one with a good bit of button pushing to get to it (A>B, MULTIRX, SPLIT and now add CTUN... all to be turned off when done).

[W2PA]

Gary - I'm wondering what kind of behavior you're looking for when tuning around that you can't get in CTUN mode. I operate that way all the time in CW and haven't bumped up against any deficiency or limitation. Does it have to do with the zoom level and displayed passband width as discussed above?

[Gary-K9RX]

Hi Chris, We discussed it above. CW covers maybe 45 - 50Khz. If you're that wide using CTUN then the passband is very very tiny (I use as small as 80Hz). For me it only makes sense to be able to tune (CTUN off) around in a window that is 18 - 24Khz wide which gives me a reasonable passband and the ability to go up and down the band looking for activity. I personally don't care for the idea of adding bandstack 'segments' to achieve this (with CTUN on). CTUN on works on SSB where the nominal passband I use is 2.4 - 2.6Khz. I use APF on all the time - often set to 30Hz - so having the signal centered in the passband is important - being able to SEE the passband, i.e. not tiny - makes this necessary (18-24Khz window width). Often the signals are weak - and the "center" function doesn't work (I rarely use it).

[W2PA]

I'm confused (no surprise ;-)
If your display is 45-50 kHz wide then the passband is tiny whether you're in CTUN or not, right? I agree that tuning around is better in a width of 18-24 kHz. So this is a zoom issue, I believe.

[Gary-K9RX]

Chris, In order to have a decent sized passband window I use 18-24Khz. However on most bands - the upper HF at least, CW exntends to 45 - 55Khz above the bottom of the band. So if one wanted to "see" the whole window (and even that isn't the whole window as occasionally some DX station will be even higher) - and use that wide of a window, 45-55Khz, the passband is far too tiny. Alternatively, one could, as I believe you said you do, use CTUN on and multiple BANDSTACK selections. That's just one more additional 'thing' to do - vs. just allow TX to be seen when SPLIT is on with CTUN off (ideal).

[W2PA]

My point has nothing to do with bandstacks. Maybe different terms are needed. I think what you mean by "passband window" is the panadapter window.

With a panadapter width of 18-24 kHz, you get a decent sized passband representation (the shaded filter width depicted on the panadapter) whether you are in CTUN or not. Right?

I get that CW bands are at least 55kHz wide (technically they're wider but most CW operation is in the lower portion). Yes, if you want to see that whole window, the passband in the panadapter (i.e. the visual representation of the filter width) is far too tiny. But again, this is independent of whether or not you are in CTUN mode.

I maintain this is not a CTUN issue. It's what zoom level you want to have for (1) viewing the whole CW band or (2) viewing the neighborhood of your operating frequency such that the filter passband representation in the panadapter is reasonable size.

You can't have (1) and (2) at the same time. It doesn't matter whether you're in CTUN or not.

What did I get wrong here?

[Gary-K9RX]

We're talking cross-purpose I think. Sorry. So - I mention bandstacks only because you had said you use multiple ones (or maybe it was one could use multiple ones) to remain with CTUN on and a more narrow window -- all in an effort to try to solve the point of this feature request which is simply to display the transmit frequency when operating split.

The 'passband window' is the gray area of the filter passband, it is not the width of the panadapter.

The width of the pan is simply put the width of the pan. I use 18-24Khz in order to have a decent size passband width/window.

What started this conversation was you had said one CAN see their TX freq IF CTUN is on, and indeed that is the case. The suggestion was, as you do, just use CTUN on. But that means now with a window of, lets say 20Khz, that I am not able to see anything above/outside of that window without turning CTUN off - moving - and redoing CTUN. A pitb and a complete non-starter.

Alternatively, as again you've suggested the use of CTUN, going to a wide/full coverage (yet really still not full coverage) window of say 50Khz the passband/filter 'gray window' is far too small to be useful for working weak signal DX.

So we're back to the original ask of this feature: ideally please display the TX frequency when operating split, not 'center' the TX which makes it entirely possible one could have forgotten to turn on SPLIT and is now TXing ON TOP OF the DX stn. A not so good thing to do. Also one doesn't know where they are relative to the pileup (while transmitting).

I added today that BECAUSE (as you stated) one can see their TX when in CTUN mode one solution, albeit not ideal, is to indeed go through the motions of A>B, MUTLIRX (on), SPLIT (on), and now CTUN (on). And then reverse that when done using split. If I do this I still have a) the same pan window width b) same passband/filter width and c) I can see my TX frequency (is not on the DX as well as its placement in the pileup and most importantly the guy that last worked the DX).

Hopefully, that is a bit more clear. I think we've beat this one to death Chris ... hopefully we've not bored others to tears :)

Gary

[W2PA]

It's not quite clear yet.

I am not suggesting you use a wider panadapter window.

Earlier you said "In order to have a decent sized passband window I use 18-24Khz" - thus I believed you were calling the panadapter width the passband window, which it's not. I don't believe you or anyone uses a filter width of 18-24 kHz. Your latest clarification fixes that.

I think your problem is that you are not using CTUN set up correcctly. If you are limited to tuning around within the panadapter width, then this is certainly the case. I have no such restriction. I can tune around the whole band or wherever I like, even with a relatively narrow panadapter width such as 18-24 kHz.

You said "I am not able to see anything above/outside of that window without turning CTUN off - moving - and redoing CTUN". This is most certainly not true. All you have to do is tune the vfo to one edge of the panadapter and keep going. The panadapter will move with you, just as it would if you had CTUN off and the VFO was in the center of the panadapter. You can slide your 18-24 kHz wide panadapter window all around the band all you like. If this is not the case for you then we need to figure out which setting needs changing.

On the setup Options tab, do you have "ClickTune Drag" checked? And "Limit to Spectral" unchecked? Note: You can not un-check "LImit to Spectral" unless "ClickTune Drag" is checked first. If the limit is checked, even if it's grayed-out, it will limit your tuning range to within the panadapter only.

[Gary-K9RX]

AH HA! That is the difference! I did have "ClickTune Drag" checked as well as "limit to spectral"!! THANK YOU sir for your patience. Now I (emphasis) am on the same page ... and its sweeeeettt! My apologies for missing that.

Richie: without any objections, I'd now say this can be closed out. I'm good.

Gary

[W2PA]

Excellent! I had a feeling we were missing something. I failed to realize you were equating CTUN with a fixed tuning range.

Richie (@ramdor ) - I think this calls for perhaps clarifying those settings on the Setup/Options tab. I don't recall what's the default but clearly ClickTune Drag checked and Limit to Spectral unchecked should be the defaults.

Incidentally, ClickTune Drag unchecked causes a re-centering of the display every time you hit the display edge (visually jarring), whereas checked results in a much smoother behavior (in my opinion).