reactiflux / volunteers

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(DUPLICATE) Moving from Slack to another service #17

Closed benigeri closed 9 years ago

benigeri commented 9 years ago

PLEASE DISCUSS IN https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/25

Why don't we leave Slack?

In short, we haven't found a better alternative.

1. High switching cost

7500 people already have Reactiflux Slack account. Dozens of repos link to their respective Reactiflux channel. Switching to another service would be a big deal, and we'll probably lose a significant chunk of the community.

We're not opposed to moving away from Slack. We have very high switching cost though, so we'll only move if we have very good reasons to do so.

2. The product is amazing

Slack is great, and lots of people love it. Many of us believe it's the best messaging service for teams.

3. Many of us have it open by default.

Reactiflux is unusually active compared to other public Slack groups, Gitter channels, IRC channels, etc… Why is that?

Probably because so many of us use React and Slack at work.

Many of us are thinking about React at work. We’re working using libraries, building libraries, and running into bugs and problems. So we’re inclined to talk (read complain) about it with other people.

Many of us work at startups and tech companies that use Slack for team communication. So we open Slack every day and leave it running almost all the time.

And several months ago, Slack made it incredibly to switch between all of your teams.

Which means that even though most of us could never justify having yet another app or webpage open 24/7, just to talk to Reactiflux people, it happens automatically.

Obviously this isn’t the case for everyone on Reactiflux, but it is for many of us. In the early days, tons of people that joined kept on telling me “Oh, it’s so nice to be able to ask React questions on Slack since I already have it open all day.”

What are the top contenders?

Gitter

Gitter's benefits are that:

  1. It works well with GitHub, which probably everybody on Reactiflux users.
  2. It comes with unlimited message history.

But Reactiflux would not make sense in Gitter world. Gitter channels are based on repos. So instead of what we currently have, in Slack world:

Gitter world would look like this:

All channels would no longer be grouped under Reactiflux. The community would break up and separate into dozens of smaller organizations, like Facebook, Yahoo, and Rakt. (Are we even sure that Facebook or Yahoo want Gitter organizations?)

So in Gitter world, what would be left of Reactiflux? Not much. Why do we need another Reactiflux/redux room? There will already be a Rakt/redux room.

I don't think Gitter world would be better.

In Slack world, Reactiflux creates an overlap between all of the React sub-communities. It brings people from #redux, #alt, #reflux, and #fluxible together because it's so easy to go from one channel to the other, or to mingle in #general.

In Slack world, it's easy to find channels and to peek inside to see if you like it. You can tag people across channels, so everybody's around all the time.

Slack let's Reactiflux be a higher order community for all of the smaller React and Flux communities.

eldh commented 9 years ago

It won't solve points 1 (though it seems user accounts can be migrated) or 3, and I'm not sure about 2 either. But anyway, I would like to throw in http://www.mattermost.org/ as an alternative. It's built with react, it's open source, and at least on paper it provides a similar feature set as Slack. The operating cost would be limited to the cost of running a server. It's at least better fit to the Reactiflux community model than Gitter.

zackify commented 9 years ago

I have used mattermost and let me assure you: it is far too buggy to be used yet. I wish it was stable, but it has a lot of problems. Bugs. Tons of them. No native apps, and a lot more. On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 04:51 Andreas Eldh notifications@github.com wrote:

It won't solve points 1 (though it seems user accounts can be migrated) or 3, and I'm not sure about 2 either. But anyway, I would like to throw in http://www.mattermost.org/ as an alternative. It's built with react, it's open source, and at least on paper it provides a similar feature set as Slack. The operating cost would be limited to the cost of running a server. It's at least better fit to the Reactiflux community model than Gitter.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/17#issuecomment-141950551 .

eldh commented 9 years ago

Ok. Too bad, it seems like an interesting project and it would be awesome if there was a viable open platform alternative.

benigeri commented 9 years ago

Yup, I bet that it will get some love one day and become a viable option for many communities. But today it feels like a premature product. Lots of bugs and missing features. It's really hard to beat Slack's product quality and polish.

aaronjensen commented 9 years ago

fwiw, you can have rooms within a gitter, so you could do: reactiflux/f/redux, reactiflux/f/alt (where f is just a short name I picked out for a project).

If projects wanted their own room, that'd be fine, you could just have reactiflux be a curated list of react gitter rooms, many of which are hosted at reactiflux/f/*

vcarl commented 9 years ago

Sam C (Slack) Sep 24, 3:24 PM

Hi Paul,

I’m writing to inform you that we've disabled the ability to add more users to the Reactiflux Slack team. We're happy that you've found Slack to be a great platform for your community but from both an administrative and performance perspective this is proving to be unsustainable.

Although we do simple chat and file-sharing very well, Slack simply isn’t designed for communities of thousands of users to chat. Slack's ideally designed for teams of coworkers who collaborate closely and frequently to get work done. That said, looking into ways to better support communities like yours in the future is something that has been suggested many times! The idea is under consideration, and if changes are implemented to make this easier in the future, we'll be sure to get the word out.

I’m not sure how you’re sending out your invites, because if you’re using the web interface it should tell you that your maximum user limit was reached. If you’re using the undocumented API, we’re returning a user_limit_reached error that you'll run into soon.

If you do want to continue to use Slack to manage this community, I'd recommend you spin up multiple smaller teams and cap each one around no more than 1,000 users. Once one team fills up, stop inviting people to that team and start a new one for the next group of people who want to join your community. That's the best way to ensure that your teams remain manageable and that the service stays nice and snappy for you.

Thanks so much for your understanding. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to drop us a line!

Regards,

Sam

TL;DR Slack says Reactiflux is too big and needs to find a new home.

robotmayo commented 9 years ago

My heart belongs to IRC.

cobbweb commented 9 years ago

Another option: https://www.zulip.org/

jaylaw81 commented 9 years ago

And https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat

vcarl commented 9 years ago

We've talked about Rocket, Zulip, MatterMost, IRC, Gitter, etc. The main downside of a lot of these is that they're self-hosted, so Reactiflux would have to cover server costs and have somebody keeping it running. Given that Slack has mentioned performance and administration issues, that might not be viable.

morenoh149 commented 9 years ago

http://www.reactiflux.com/ should be disabled then no? I've shared the link with colleagues and they have received no email. A note would suffice.

Aaike commented 9 years ago

i have the same problem , tried entering my email several times at reactiflux.com, i get no invitation email... how can i get an invite ?

germ13 commented 9 years ago

@morenoh149 I believe the invite screen is rendered by slackin.

The README.md there states one reason why emails wont be received. Might be a good idea to look into this.

Although, there are a multiple places where things might be going wrong:

morenoh149 commented 9 years ago

@Aaike @germ13 no. We found out in this thread that slack is not allowing new members to join reactiflux. I'm suggesting the signup page be disabled altogether or replaced with a note.

vcarl commented 9 years ago

Agreed. @benigeri, I'd be happy to do some of that, but I'm unaware of where anything is hosted or where the code lives.

BerkeleyTrue commented 9 years ago

Hello Everybody,

I work for Free Code Camp. A couple of months ago we also ran into the same issue that the Reactiflux community ran into with Slacks invisible user limit. Unlike this community, we where given no warning that we where going to hit the ceiling. I won't go into further detail, but you can read about it here if you have a couple of minutes.

We switched to Gitter. We had an exceedingly warm welcome from the team and assurances that they could accommodate our community as it grows. In our main chat room we have over 24 and a half thousand users and we have 500 rooms under Free Code Camps organization. There has not been any noticeable drop in quality of service. In fact we have noticed a steady climb.

The Gitter team is incredibly accessible. We know them on a first name basis (The team is only four strong). Can you say that about Slack? And even though they are located in England we have have met with the team in San Francisco twice now. They let us in on what their plans are and how they could effect us in the future. They give us sneak peaks into new unannounced features (I'm extremely excited about one of them and can't wait for their public announcement).

Reactiflux is going to be huge and ever expanding. I think Gitter is the perfect platform. Just the response we got from the Gitter team when they heard Slack decided to stop letting our new users join our chat is enough of a reason to switch.

vcarl commented 9 years ago

We actually saw your blog post about the difficulties you had, Gitter's pretty high on our list because of your positive experiences. It's cool to hear they're so accessible, that's definitely a plus.

Aaike commented 9 years ago

@BerkeleyTrue that is good to know , we are also using Gitter on the Aurelia team , Our user base isn't as big as yours but we have a little over 2000 members now , and have experienced this steady increase in quality like you mentioned.

Would be really great if the switch to Gitter could happen sooner rather than later since a lot of people including me are feeling a bit left out when it comes to Reactiflux ;)

BerkeleyTrue commented 9 years ago

Awesome. I'm really hoping every thing works out regardless of the platform y'all choose.

When you all do switch one thing you could do is create a bot that responds to all messages in Slack that the community has moved and how to join the new platform. That will ensure people move or they will constantly see an annoying message for every one of theirs. One thing you definitely don't want is for people to hang around the old Slack.

benigeri commented 9 years ago

Unfortunately, we have to leave Slack.

I got on the phone with a couple of Slack people last week, and they have decided not to support infinitely large public communities. Slack wants to focus on building team communication software, and groups like Reactiflux don't fit into that.

The main issue is with our rapidly growing user base. We are already causing a decent amount of load on there servers, and many of us are already experiencing performance issues. It would take Slack time and effort to attend to these issues, and they have not allocated the resources to do that.

The only way we could stay with Slack would be to cap our user base at < 8k. Probably around 1-3K. This obviously doesn't work for an open community. The most important thing about our community is that it's open and anyone can join in less than a minute. So when new people want to join the conversation, it's very low friction. We obviously can't keep the friction low if we start moderating accounts to keep our numbers low.

This is a bit sad, but at least we know for sure that Slack is no longer the right platform for us. Now we can focus our efforts on finding a better platform for Reactiflux.

I'm going to create a new issue to focus the discussion on which product/service we should migrate to. I hope we can make a group decision in the next 1-2 weeks.

Sing-Li commented 9 years ago

Please pardon me for this plug. And feel free to delete this if you deem it inappropriate.

I'm from the Rocket.Chat project, a 100% MIT-licensed open sourced slack alternative.

We are in the midst of adding a provisioning and hosting service (attempting to do it free - long term - for all true FOSS projects). Please try us out here in our support and demo community server - it is filled with helpful core devs and contributors around the clock during the work week.

Contact any one of us. We will gladly supply you with more information on the project/service - or assist with migration whenever you are ready.

chiedo commented 9 years ago

I'm a fan of IRC. Let's keep things simple. IRC is easy if you want to participate in a conversation (via web options) It only gets difficult when you want to do more.

Rocket.Chat is looking pretty cool to me though. It's at least worth looking into.

sgoldsmith commented 9 years ago

Have you considered www.hipchat.com ? Native clients on all platforms (incl Linux), unlimited integrations + free for teams of all sizes forever. There's even an easy Slack importer to migrate all your current teams, channels & people over to the new instance.

We have many customers operating at the scale you're looking for; give it a try!

Aaike commented 9 years ago

i know IRC is a popular option and i do like it. but let's consider easily sharing screenshots, code/syntax highlighting, basic markdown formatting and searching chat history. if i'm not wrong these are all things that are lacking in IRC

commadelimited commented 9 years ago

I'm indifferent as I'm not part of this community, but I recently heard about a free alternative to Slack called Ryver: http://www.ryver.com/features/

elwayman02 commented 9 years ago

Hipchat is the way to go, almost as good as Slack

juliankrispel commented 9 years ago

Ah that sucks. It's like saying, oh we love open source and obviously use open source software in our product. We can't be asked to contribute a bit of money towards the community. Can't somebody sponsor this, like facebook or something? It'd really make sense and be good publicity!

gajus commented 9 years ago

One more for IRC.

philholden commented 9 years ago

Cannot use IRC at work. We use internally with our own server. But I get warnings if I connected to freenode. Some bots apparently use freenode to communicate.

engelgabriel commented 9 years ago

Guys, I can create a https://reactiflux.rocket.chat for your community if you want to give Rocket.Chat a try?

mydigitalself commented 9 years ago

We're talking soon, but I just wanted to point out:

But Reactiflux would not make sense in Gitter world. Gitter channels are based on repos. So instead of what we currently have, in Slack world:

reactiflux/react-router reactiflux/redux reactiflux/fluxible Gitter world would look like this:

rakt/react-router facebook/react yahoo/fluxible

This isn't quite the case. We started out with 1:1 mapping with GitHub repos, but very quickly added the ability to create any channel as long as it has an owner within GitHub, so you can quite easily have:

reactiflux/react-router reactiflux/redux reactiflux/fluxible

Where those rooms are public channels owned by the reactiflux org.

We'd love to have you folks on Gitter, it's exactly what we built our product for and are entirely committed to developer communities and communication.

quicksnap commented 9 years ago

I'll add my vote toward any rich client with it's own collection of rooms. I think IRC would be a loss because of its lack of rich communication and higher bar of entry.

I thought Discord was awesome, but the lack of monospace formatting is a huge deal to me. Also, currently lacks an API, so we would lose our bots.

jryans commented 9 years ago

IRC seems just fine to me. Gitter has an IRC bridge, so I would probably use that if Gitter was chosen.

elwayman02 commented 9 years ago

That is incorrect, Dan: https://support.discordapp.com/hc/communities/public/questions/205313137-API-for-bots

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:07 AM Dan Schuman notifications@github.com wrote:

I'll add my vote toward any rich client with it's own collection of rooms. I think IRC would be a loss because of its lack of rich communication and higher bar of entry.

I thought Discord was awesome, but the lack of monospace formatting is a huge deal to me. Also, currently lacks an API, so we would lose our bots.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/17#issuecomment-147779860 .

elwayman02 commented 9 years ago

https://github.com/Arcbot-Org/Arcbot

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:10 AM Jordan Hawker hawker.jordan@gmail.com wrote:

That is incorrect, Dan: https://support.discordapp.com/hc/communities/public/questions/205313137-API-for-bots

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:07 AM Dan Schuman notifications@github.com wrote:

I'll add my vote toward any rich client with it's own collection of rooms. I think IRC would be a loss because of its lack of rich communication and higher bar of entry.

I thought Discord was awesome, but the lack of monospace formatting is a huge deal to me. Also, currently lacks an API, so we would lose our bots.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/17#issuecomment-147779860 .

quicksnap commented 9 years ago

@elwayman02 Glad to be wrong!

quicksnap commented 9 years ago

I was pulling my info from here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/spa/4moihw0kt47f2sy/bj3as-wh.png

elwayman02 commented 9 years ago

Yea, it's not officially released/documented yet, but it's there.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:14 AM Dan Schuman notifications@github.com wrote:

I was pulling my info from here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/spa/4moihw0kt47f2sy/bj3as-wh.png

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/17#issuecomment-147781402 .

vcarl commented 9 years ago

Discord is blocked by corporate webfilters as gaming related, so IMO it's not the best choice.

elwayman02 commented 9 years ago

I think there's an argument to be made to get it whitelisted for work purposes, though... I don't think it's a strong enough reason to discount the best available product.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:23 AM Carl Vitullo notifications@github.com wrote:

Discord is blocked by corporate webfilters as gaming related, so IMO it's not the best choice.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/17#issuecomment-147783531 .

elwayman02 commented 9 years ago

In fact, pretty much the only way Discord will stop being blocked as gaming related is if some non-gaming communities like Reactiflux start using it. Otherwise, we create a vicious cycle where we don't use it because it's blocked for being gaming, and thus the only people using it are gamers.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:24 AM Jordan Hawker hawker.jordan@gmail.com wrote:

I think there's an argument to be made to get it whitelisted for work purposes, though... I don't think it's a strong enough reason to discount the best available product.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:23 AM Carl Vitullo notifications@github.com wrote:

Discord is blocked by corporate webfilters as gaming related, so IMO it's not the best choice.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/17#issuecomment-147783531 .

vcarl commented 9 years ago

It advertises itself as being for gamers, I don't think that's a concern for them. Their main userbase is people using it for gaming, and there are already features we won't be taking advantage of.

I think Gitter is the best option. Other than personal preference I haven't seen a reason it wouldn't work, and it's previously been extremely friendly to groups larger than ours in the past.

taion commented 9 years ago

FWIW the voice features on Discord are so cool that at least a few of us are thinking of trying it out for more work-related stuff.

elwayman02 commented 9 years ago

Chat room discovery on Gitter is pretty awful. There doesn't seem to be a way to create a channel list other than making people navigate to each channel via the links/badges.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 10:28 AM Carl Vitullo notifications@github.com wrote:

It advertises itself as being for gamers, I don't think that's a concern for them.

I think Gitter is the best option. Other than personal preference I haven't seen a reason it wouldn't work, and it's previously been extremely friendly to groups larger than ours in the past.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/reactiflux/volunteers/issues/17#issuecomment-147784896 .

quicksnap commented 9 years ago

Do we have a sense of how many Reactiflux users would be affected by corporate blacklist?

BerkeleyTrue commented 9 years ago

Chat room discovery on Gitter is pretty awful.

You would just navigate to /rooms. See: https://gitter.im/orgs/FreeCodeCamp/rooms

vcarl commented 9 years ago

Also https://gitter.im/orgs/reactiflux/rooms, we made a few while exploring options a while ago

mydigitalself commented 9 years ago

@elwayman02 we're working on improving that, but it's certainly not the case that there isn't a channel list. in any room, there's a globe of the world in the top right corner and that will take you to the directory of rooms ala:

https://gitter.im/gitterHQ http://gitter.im/dotnet

Admittedly it needs to be better surfaced, and we're working on some designs for that right now.

chiedo commented 9 years ago

Just my opinion but we've heard a lot of options at this point. Could someone authoritative narrow it down to a few top contenders now so the conversation can continue from there?

If I made the call, we would continue with the assumption that we'd now be choosing between one of the following: IRC Gitter ChatGrape

Just my opinion though!

vcarl commented 9 years ago

The community has expressed interest in IRC and Discord, mainly. The group coordinators have settled on Gitter as the most viable option, but didn't discuss Discord at the time. Pretty much everything has an IRC bridge (and would be simple to bot), so I think the IRC crowd can remain content-ish no matter what platform.

For the purposes of narrowing options, the shortlist is