How do we address possible harassment of our signatories?

[nukeop]

I have been contacted by several people on Discord and Matrix who told me that they were sent creepy messages by the anti-Stallman crowd, calling them to remove their signatures and threatening to stalk them, get them fired etc. I know there are people who are still reluctant to sign, fearing future retaliation.

They are trying to address similar issues here: https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2460

How do you propose we do it? I don't want to put a scary notice at the top because I think it will do more to scare people away than to responsibly inform them that there might be crazy creepy people trying to stalk them.

I also do not think those threats have any substance, and I do not seriously believe for a moment that anyone will have any IRL problems for signing this letter, and would like to communicate that clearly.

[ghost]

They're using a Gmail account to send these threatening emails

Email verification services say this email doesn't exist

I guess they are spoofing the sender, so it's probably no use to report it. But there is a chance this address gets into spam list.

Yup. I tried to add this e-mail address to a Google Drive folder and it says that the Google account doesn't exist:

The only thing we can do is report these emails as spam and (perhaps) use e-mail headers to determine what service/server they're using for sending these messages.

A bit unrelated, but it's funny how they're ganging up on Stallman for alleged harrassment and then harassing anyone who doesn't agree with them.

[test1230-lab]

A bit unrelated, but it's funny how they're ganging up on Stallman for alleged harrassment and then harassing anyone who doesn't agree with them.

What type of harassment were they accusing him of again?

[ghost]

What type of harassment were they accusing him of again?

I meant that they're accusing him of being misogynistic, ableist, and transphobic.

[KOLANICH]

Can the ones that got such letters check DKIM signatures in them or at least post the full messages with headers?

[cmpunches]

Can the ones that got such letters check DKIM signatures in them or at least post the full messages with headers?

Agreed -- headers are needed here. Please be aware that recipients of the abusive emails with gmail accounts will have stripped headers -- so we want headers from someone who is not receiving email at a gmail account.

[vinniec]

what can we learn from the actions of RMS detractors?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/fd/00/37fd00f3d31d7941384f0edb1673f5eb.jpg

[ExceptionallyHandsome]

A bit unrelated, but it's funny how they're ganging up on Stallman for alleged harrassment and then harassing anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Hm. This sentence made me think: who are "they"? Do "they" exist at all? It is apparent that the mails were sent by a low-effort bot that could have been set up by a single script kiddie. I think it's unfair to attribute this spam to our adversaries' community en masse, for we've no evidence that this blackmail is coordinated or even supported by them; there is a black ship in every flock. Cui prodest of course, and yet...

Speaking of benefits: could it be that @nukeop is the one who was evil all along? I couldn't think of a more inciting way to demonize the enemy. First I would discover a commonly shared scare, a deed that each of the laypeople is secretly afraid to be smitten by - blackmail in our case. I would commit it ruthlessly and shamelessly, consequences be damned, then blame it on the enemy. No one would prove anything - there would be no evidence to be brought against me. The email address is a throwaway or maybe even fake. The headers would indicate one of the biggest email servers that's used by millions. A perfect crime. Also, as any shepherd who's worth their prayers, I would sweeten the bullet by offsetting the threat with a big consolation - salvation, even: I would note that the threats have no real substance and the signers' lives and IRL careers are in no real danger.

But what if it wasn't him or her? What if it was one of us? A cunning troll does the mailing and makes it look like OP's nefarious plan? You almost tricked me here, you glorious bastard. And don't even start with this puny, "There are no trolls here! They don't exist here!" excuses. I am here.

Now you think I'm too paranoid to be considered healthy and perhaps should go see a doctor. I am, and perhaps. Twenty years of programming experience, a degree in mathematics, and just a tiny bit of weed will do that to you, too. The high will pass, it always does, but RMS shall stay. Maybe not it power, maybe not with FSF, but in our memories, minds, and hearts.

As The Prophecy has it, one day an Indian-Chinese programmer - the world will be conquered by India-China coalition by that day - that nameless programmer (nameless because she didn't notice a sneaky checkbox in the Google Accounts registration form, agreeing to transfer her wealth, her name, and her firstborn into the custody of Alphabet Inc) will finally, after countless attempts, succeed in compiling her Rust program consisting of spaghetti-code mostly (Indians never change). The program will be running for 6 days and seven nights, spending the CPU time on livelocks and sporadic EndCoin mainings mostly. Eventually, on the seventh day, it will output the eleventh commandment, promising the end of suffering under corporate cabal, the Second Coming of Free Software, and a free beer volcano to every programmer.

The grace period will last for about three hours, for this is the time needed by corporations to prepare a lawsuit that will render the commandment illegal. The lawsuit will surely be won in the court, nevermind that the judge is a close relative to one of the CEOs. It will be amended by the High Court of course, years later, but the commandment will be lost forever. The corporations will admit their fault and apologize loudly and sincerely, they will even send 0.000000000000666% of their gross income to charity, and they will find and fire a random lawyer, quote "fully and solely responsible for this act of gross incompetence which we condemn in strongest possible terms" end quote. I never said it was a good prophecy.

Bad news is, the prophecy was given us by the Mainframe itself and cannot be avoided by mere mortals. The only person alive who's capable of setting the mankind off the apocalyptic course is Richard, for he is The Select Apostle and stands above prophecies.

There's no other GNU than Richard Matthew Stallman, and GCC is his prophet! Amen.

[icyphox]

Just going to leave these links here: https://twitter.com/jhulten/status/1376360925809106951?s=20 https://github.com/travisbrown/octocrabby

edit: I signed the letter. This is the kind of shit we’re facing/probably going to face.

[cmpunches]

Oh, what will we do without Travis Bruin? I'll have to find a way to survive without his previously completely unknown-of support.

[6r1d]

there is a black ship in every flock

As icyphox points out, people in Twitter often mention "not to recruit us", because we support all the reasons they vilify Richard with. Have a look:

People who are confident enough have an answer to that. I respect that a lot.

These actions give one an incentive to use a real name, because when there's a lot of us, it'll get harder for corporations: HR people will have to think and read our letter. And "open letter" situation will die down faster, while "open letter" people attack their inner circle in companies using new things to blame themselves for. And "open letter" situation will die down.

Speaking of benefits: could it be that @nukeop is the one who was evil all along?

That's an interesting idea. But @nukeop is a full-stack dev. He probably configured many email servers in his life. Besides the fact he doesn't seem like one who will do that, he is not as incompetent as to attempt this type of evil move.

Setting up an email server is a pain, because there are ton of confirmations you have to do to show it's not a spam server. Here we either talk about edited images to provoke us, or a full blown server that is set up especially for that exact goal.

@Kezii @pac85, we need you to tell us details. I am asking both of you to use a "more" button that is next to "reply", click "show original" and allow us to use this information to know if there was a blackmail attempt. Thank you.

I am here.

Oh well, I was tricked, but it's nice: we'll know more about whole mail situation. Thank you, too.

---

Oh, what will we do without Travis Bruin? I'll have to find a way to survive without his previously completely unknown-of support.

I'm not rich, but if I'll ever see you, Chris, the beer's on me.

[6r1d]

Also, I'd like to ask @Kezii and @pac85 to allow rms-support-letter people to share detailed email to help protect ourselves (you can decide if it'll be an image or a link to thread).

[vearutop]

It is somewhat funny that those crazy people on twitter threaten nice people with hire blacklists, like as if getting a job in IT area was a problem. Current market situation is such, that people with such hire blacklists will be at loss, which is quite fair in my opinion. Looking how people from major companies jump onto a hate-wagon I'm not exactly sure I would want to work at such companies with them anyway.

[KOLANICH]

@bnainar, if an employer considers the advice in the tweet seriously, one doesn't want to work for such an employer anyway. It may be a sign of what in Russia is called "corporate schisophrenia" (a term for harmful "corporate culture" that is more about idiotic activities instead of working). Then it would be wasted time and effort for both sides. One should just find a more adequate employer.

[cmpunches]

@bnainar, if an employer considers the advice in the tweet seriously, one don't want to work for such an employer anyway. When a boss is mad, it would be wasted time and effort for both sides. One should just find a more adequate boss.

You can't underestimate stupid malice. It might not be a tweet.

[ghost]

Greetings from Habr.com! ;–)

I think the SJW community came into the tech & IT world. They started creating tools to find «minority humiliation» on Facebook and other social media.

It was as if Twitter had appeared in 1930s Germany.

[nukeop]

Don't get drawn into timewasting squabbles on twitter or github. Focus on our goal.

[Tw1ddle]

If there is some serious harassment then a statement from creators of both letters denouncing it would be a nice move.

Looks like most of these people tweeting about it are trying to create a chilling effect, curating their own blocklists or just having fun messing with it. Leave them to it.

[nukeop]

[nukeop]

Stage 2 of grief: anger.

[jaw-sh]

Just going to leave these links here: https://twitter.com/jhulten/status/1376360925809106951?s=20 https://github.com/travisbrown/octocrabby

edit: I signed the letter. This is the kind of shit we’re facing/probably going to face.

I'm telling you guys, you cannot support freedom of speech, freedom of expression, or an apolitical, egalitarian system in the west and have a job.

If you're looking at RMS and thinking "this is a travesty", you've already committed a thought-crime. You've already passed a line where you can know for sure that you will not fit in in western development studios.

The way forward is with crypto, your own companies, and living outside of the US/Western Europe.

[appetrosyan]

Re: Transgenders in Russia (and Armenia).

The reason why most of this would not work, is because English is surprisingly gender neutral, grammatically speaking. All you need to do, is change a few pronouns and you're done. You also have a non-offensive gender-neutral pronoun "they" that though can be problematic in some cases, can safely be used if you don't know the gender of the person, and do not want to misgender them.

In Russian it would be much harder. To add an extra gender, you'd have to create a pull request into the school education system and patch every verb of every exception to every gendered verb rule. Gender is embedded into the surname, so that needs to change. Also, in Russian, the only gender neutral pronoun is "it", that is reserved for inanimate objects only (there are two gendered words for cat, and more for dog). You have to know the gender of the person you're referring to, before you can safely use pronouns. So, you see, it's a bit more complicated than saying Russians are transphobic. They're more like trans-indifferent...

[nukeop]

Can you please keep this in discussions?

[Kezii]

@Kezii @pac85, we need you to tell us details. I am asking both of you to use a "more" button that is next to "reply", click "show original" and allow us to use this information to know if there was a blackmail attempt. Thank you.

Remove the signature in the support letter.txt

Also I want to attach my opinion as everyone else did so: this email was probably sent by a troll.

I believe that there are several people that signed the open letter that are convinced that they can "get justice" and get us fired or not hired, but they are probably a very small minority, I'd be really really impressed if they manage to reach my current employer, and even more impressed if they manage to not get laughed in the face, then we'll kindly remind them that it's totally illegal in my country to get fired over signing a letter.

I think that nobody should even care about this, there will be no irl consequences for anyone involved, tell the SJWs to fuck off (after documenting their harassment), we shouldn't compromise our ability to free speech over some dry threats

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/3357750/112834297-1e237100-9098-11eb-9dbe-5077716db229.mp4

[purplesyringa]

The headers seem to indicate the mails were indeed sent from a verified Google account. Maybe they were banned already.

[ghost]

In Russian it would be much harder. To add an extra gender, you'd have to create a pull request into the school education system and patch every verb of every exception to every gendered verb rule. Gender is embedded into the surname, so that needs to change. Also, in Russian, the only gender neutral pronoun is "it", that is reserved for inanimate objects only (there are two gendered words for cat, and more for dog). You have to know the gender of the person you're referring to, before you can safely use pronouns. So, you see, it's a bit more complicated than saying Russians are transphobic. They're more like trans-indifferent...

Same with Tamil, Arabic Hebrew, Telegu , . Only gender neutral words is "it" referring to objects without life or animal other than humans. It's derogatory to call those people as "it"

[kchanqvq]

In Russian it would be much harder. To add an extra gender, you'd have to create a pull request into the school education system and patch every verb of every exception to every gendered verb rule. Gender is embedded into the surname, so that needs to change. Also, in Russian, the only gender neutral pronoun is "it", that is reserved for inanimate objects only (there are two gendered words for cat, and more for dog). You have to know the gender of the person you're referring to, before you can safely use pronouns. So, you see, it's a bit more complicated than saying Russians are transphobic. They're more like trans-indifferent...

Same with Tamil, Arabic Hebrew, Telegu , . Only gender neutral words is "it" referring to objects without life or animal other than humans. It's derogatory to call those people as "it"

I'd like to be called as animal or sth, sounds cuter than human. Meow!

[nukeop]

Guess it's fine to close this now

[hinell]

@SpheeresX It can't be determined conclusively who is behind these emails. We can't simply trace them without having true host server information. The culprit is not necessarily among those who signed the open letter or opposing Stallman. There may be a third party who intentionally wants to inflame the alleged conflict and incite distrust and hatred just for fun.

[ghost]

There may be a third party who intentionally wants to inflame the alleged conflict and incite distrust and hatred just for fun

At the end of the day, we only disagree on small issues. We, the FOSS community as a whole, need to work together to spread the free software movement, atleast that's what I hope

[uis246]

But there are still "castes" in India? I just read different materials that in India there is still thinking of castes and they have not got rid of it until now.

I would say that there are still "castes" in Russia (though as I understand they are not only in Russia, it is just not often told explicitly) ...

It's about "jail castes" or "castes in jails"

[uis246]

In Russian it would be much harder. To add an extra gender, you'd have to create a pull request into the school education system and patch every verb of every exception to every gendered verb rule. Gender is embedded into the surname, so that needs to change. Also, in Russian, the only gender neutral pronoun is "it", that is reserved for inanimate objects only (there are two gendered words for cat, and more for dog). You have to know the gender of the person you're referring to, before you can safely use pronouns. So, you see, it's a bit more complicated than saying Russians are transphobic. They're more like trans-indifferent...

Russian is funny language. "Дверь(door) - она(is she)", "стол(table) - он(is he)". So in russian language not only "it" used for inanimate objects.

[appetrosyan]

@uis246 I get your point, but that wasn't what I meant. Unlike English, as you point out, inanimate objects can be referenced with pronouns other than it. My point was, that you don't ever use it to reference singular non-grouped persons. In other words, using an it to describe your coworker would sound more like demoting them to the level of an inanimate object, rather than a polite attempt to not refer to them with gendered language. For example "Оно пришло" rarely if ever implies the arrival of a singular person.

[Jan200101]

On the topic of harrasment, I too have faced it the biggest example took place on a private Discord server and was instigated by someone known to gaslight people good stuff

[KOLANICH]

It's about "jail castes" or "castes in jails"

It is not only in jails, people out of jails that have never been convicted still understand some expressions in феня and know when it is appropriate to use them, and very lot of people use elements of феня without knowing about that. It is not "in jails", it is in mentality now and it cannot be extracted from it forcibly, if ever, the same way as Indian castes cannot be extracted from Indian mentality. Any tries to extract that forcibly would only do harm. Even more, nothing would reinforce castes in India more than prohibition of them. The same thing as with Herostratus.

[ghost]

Have a look:

This reminds me of the persecution of Jews in Germany in the 1930s.

"muh it should make an excellent resource as a list of people not to associate with or hire for the benefit of our aryan master race"

But now modern SJW nazis have abandoned the national question and instead of Jews they persecute all those who disagree with their views. Now they propose not to hire those who disagree with their views, and tomorrow - to give them a ride in gaswagen.

[KOLANICH]

in Germany in the 1930s.

Godwin law works.

Now they propose not to hire those who disagree with their views

It is OK not to hire anyone the owner of an org doesn't like. Their money - their rules. Restricting subset of candidates a company can hire causes only expenses. If they are ready to bear the expenses on the bullshit reason - OK, there are plenty more adequate bosses.

and tomorrow - to give them a ride in gaswagen.

Not OK, but I don't think SJWs are any match of any real workers of violence. They talk too much, but in reality have even failed to properly check the signatures. Just losers.

[appetrosyan]

@KOLANICH To add to your point, would it be fair to say that people who use their position of power to get people to sign a petition to remove an upstairs competitor are not pleasant to work with? I personally would hate to work for anyone who threatened me with job loss (or lack of promotion) for not stabbing RMS in the back over (at best) tenuous evidence of wrongdoing. Ironically, them not extending me the job offer is a favour. Better to work for/with someone with ideals and respect.

Additionally, while they are free to choose whomever they wish to hire, I'm not OK with them scraping this letter for a plugin. Interestingly, it's violating several national laws, and a couple of international laws, so me being an Armenian student in the UK, I can sue the author of the extension, and most likely win. Just because they are justified in not hiring you based on your political views, doesn't mean that every method used for this admittedly scary-sounding "retaliation" is lawful. Giving McGovern et al, a pass is why we had to step in.

[KOLANICH]

would it be fair to say that people who use their position of power to get people to sign a petition to remove an upstairs competitor are not pleasant to work with?

Absolutely. It is an absolute disrespect. Though someone feel like it is OK for them to sell their position for money (and some people I personally beleive that are such are present in the list of signatories of this letter, but it is likely because this part of position was not bought yet).

Additionally, while they are free to choose whomever they wish to hire, I'm not OK with them scraping this letter for a plugin.

I am OK with them scraping the letter. Open letters are signed to tell the world the fact I, <the person>, have signed the letter, and I am ready and nkt afraid to face the consequencies of that. In the letters like this one (and the anti-RMS one) it can be amended with "I am not afraid of that assholes. Our mission is right. Victory will be ours!".

If one is afraid that people would know he has signed the open letter and/or is afraid of consequencies of that, then he shouldn't have signed it in the first place. So scraping the letter and distributing the list they actually assist in fulfilling the purpose of such letters.

Interestingly, it's violating several national laws, and a couple of international laws

Please stop referring to the laws. You have no right to violate freedom of speech. Neither have the ones who have made the laws.

so me being an Armenian student in the UK, I can sue the author of the extension

You can sue, but I won't bet on your winning. And if you really will go suing, I sincerelly hope and wish you to lose the case, because suing on such matters is just maliciously exploiting the current legal system designed by the devil himself.

Just because they are justified in not hiring you based on your political views, doesn't mean that every method used for this admittedly scary-sounding "retaliation" is lawful. Giving McGovern et al, a pass is why we had to step in.

IMHO it is OK not to hire anyone the owner of the company doesn't like. It is his company, it is his money, and it is up to him how to decide what is the best way for him to spend his money.

Again, please note, I refuse to take part in the special Olympics of arguing about which kind of rights are real.

[appetrosyan]

Hey, just because I write a letter saying that I support a cause and not afraid of the consequences doesn’t make the idiots who decide to take the chance and shoot me because of it not guilty. Shooting people is wrong regardless of what the cause is, which is why even the police are supposed to only sometimes use lethal force.

With the laws, I hate to side with McGovern on this, but 1) free speech is only protected from government intervention. It can be argued that corporations are sufficiently similar to countries for them to also need free speech laws, but they don’t. Neither do individuals. 2) The GDRP is not at all about free speech. If I consent to data being processed by one party and then another party uses that data without my consent, they are not in fact exercising free speech, they are violating my right to privacy. Essentially this is wiretapping, which is illegal both for individuals, for government agencies without probable cause (or should be) and especially for the government. 3) if you don’t like the laws, live somewhere where the laws are different, or lobby against them. The trouble here is that Snowden and Stallman were fighting for these precise anonymity and privacy laws to be reinforced. While the GDPR is not a panacæa to the issue of data collection, it is a step in the right direction, and currently dictates that the plug-in cease to exist. Again, if you don’t like the law, then live somewhere it doesn’t apply.

[KOLANICH]

doesn’t make the idiots who decide to take the chance and shoot me because of it not guilty

I don't understand this sentence.

doesn’t make the idiots who decide to take the chance and shoot me

Everyone can buy a knife in a store selling goods for kitchen and attack you without even shooting. And it is OK that they can buy a knife. They only should be trialled if they actually attacked you. One mustn't trial people based on speculations what they can do.

free speech is only protected from government intervention.

Using courts is exactly government (state in fact) intervention.

The GDRP is not at all about free speech.

GDPR is a flawed law that is written the way to help corporations with potential to become monopolists to outcompete smaller ones. And it violates quite some freedoms. It is not good and must be abolished, but in some cases it can be used against monopolists themselves.

If I consent to data being processed by one party and then another party uses that data without my consent, they are not in fact exercising free speech, they are violating my right to privacy.

GDPR and a lot of other laws violate free speech and must be abolished.

If I consent to data being processed by one party and then another party uses that data without my consent, they are not in fact exercising free speech, they are violating my right to privacy.

One shouldn't have no expectation of privacy when signing public letters. The whole purpose of public letters is to trade some amount of privacy to the effect resulting from the signing of the letter.

It is OK to demand mass surveillance to be abolished. It is not OK to demand stopping spreading public knowledge.

Essentially this is wiretapping, which is illegal both for individuals, for government agencies without probable cause (or should be) and especially for the government.

Absolutely no. Wiretapping is wire tapping. The word initally meant that someone goes to the wire leading to your analog phone, cuts the isolation of wires and connects own device to it to spy on your phone calls.

It is absolutely different from the case when a person publicly roars "I support Stallman, record it!" (which is a kind of an offline analigue of open letters) on an agora and then cries "Don't distribute the list of Stallman supporters, it's me in it, there are people who prefer to boycott me if this list is readily available".

[appetrosyan]

I don't understand this sentence.

For example. I sign a letter that says "I love RMS". There are people who hate me for it. Them saying that they hate me for it is them exercising free speech. Them shooting me in the gut is not however Free speech.

Everyone can buy a knife in a store selling goods for kitchen and attack you without even shooting. And it is OK that they can buy a knife. They only should be trialled if they actually attacked you. One mustn't trial people based on speculations what they can do.

Their creating a chrome extension is not buying a knife. Their extension is more akin to stealing: I did not consent to their datamining.

Using courts is exactly government (state in fact) intervention.

State intervention isn't bad. Unregulated state intervention is. Example of state intervention: police that arrest people who mugged you. Example of unregulated state intervention: the police mug you and arrest someone else.

GDPR and a lot of other laws violate free speech and must be abolished.

1) it's not about free speech, it's about data collection and privacy. 2) If you think that way, you are more than welcome to lobby and vote. I'm sure google, Facebook and Amazon would be on your side, because unfettered data collection is their business model and the GDPR makes it much harder for them.

One shouldn't have no expectation of privacy when signing public letters. The whole purpose of public letters is to trade some amount of privacy to the effect resulting from the signing of the letter.

You are factually wrong. There are limits of reasonable information collection, regulated by privacy laws.

. It is absolutely different from the case when a person publicly roars "I support Stallman, record it!" (which is a kind of an offline analigue of open letters) on an agora and then cries "Don't distribute the list of Stallman supporters, it's me in it, there are people who prefer to boycott me if this list is readily available".

Ah... Mate, I'm sure you mean well, but that's not how privacy works. Signatures are not copyrightable. My signature or the fact that I used it somewhere is only redistributable if and only if explicit consent is given. You also aren't allowed to make modifications to the letter after I've signed it and keep my signature.

So in your example, if somebody "roars" that they are Jewish, you still need to ask them if they want to participate in a data collection experiment. In the Digital world, the laws are different. They are different for a reason.

[KOLANICH]

Their extension is more akin to stealing: I did not consent to their datamining.

I feel like your consent is not needed for that. When you signed this "letter", you have willfully made your support of Stallman public knowledge. And one cannot and shouldn't restrict distribution and processing of public knowledge. One can though in some jurisdictions, and it is an evil thing.

Signatures are not copyrightable.

Sure.

You also aren't allowed to make modifications to the letter after I've signed it and keep my signature.

Of course they are allowed, but it would make the signature void. To make that automatically happen, digital signatures could have been used.

You are factually wrong. There are limits of reasonable information collection, regulated by privacy laws.

I am not. I don't reason about what is legal and what is not, I am not a lawer. If one wants to talk about legality, I am the wrong person to talk about it. I reason about if it violates human rights or not. And these are absolutely different concept having nothing common with the laws and legality.

State intervention isn't bad.

Ones who think so should consider emigrating to the states that are more totalitarian that the one they are in, such as People Republic of China. There they would get even more state intervention that they consider that isn't bad.

This discussion got a bit too political, discussing politics is useless waste of time, I don't want to discuss it anymore.

[appetrosyan]

I feel like your consent is not needed for that. When you signed this "letter", you have willfully made your support of Stallman public knowledge. And one cannot and shouldn't restrict distribution and processing of public knowledge. One can though in some jurisdictions, and it is an evil thing.

Your IP address is as much public knowledge as my signature: not at all, though it can be figured out, doing so without consent is at the very least not respectful of your privacy.

I reason about if it violates human rights or not. And these are absolutely different concept having nothing common with the laws and legality.

Mate, laws are what delineates rights and responsibilities. No laws = no rights. You can't talk about human rights, without talking about whether or not they violate others' rights! The constitution is the collection of those rights deemed irrevocable, and it serves as the common benchmark of all laws. We have right to free speech, and to privacy. You're always referring to violations of their free speech, when they, in fact violated, mine, yours and about 5000 other people's privacy. Both are equally important.

Ones who think so should consider emigrating to the states that are more totalitarian that the one they are in, such as People Republic of China. There they would get even more state intervention that they consider that isn't bad.

I'd invite you not to play dumb, and consider that what you classify as totalitarian countries actually fall under unregulated government intervention, that you conveniently neglected to quote. If you are here taking a stance against taking things out of context, please be consistent and yourself try to abide by that principle.

This discussion got a bit too political, discussing politics is useless waste of time, I don't want to discuss it anymore.

No discussion is a waste of time, if the interlocutors (you and me) are polite, respectful and follow a set of rules set out by the ancient greeks (you can do better in the modern day). It's sad that we didn't manage to reach a consensus of sorts.

[KOLANICH]

Mate, laws are what delineates rights and responsibilities. No laws = no rights.

I don't want to discuss this. There are 2 completely different definitions of rights, and both are called rights and constantly confused. And in fact creating of this confusion is intentional. A person saying a right usually means only one of these 2 kinds, and which one is determined by his political preferences, and pretends the another kind doesn't exist. I don't want to discuss this topic. It is not the thing that can be reflashed.

No discussion is a waste of time, if the interlocutors (you and me) are polite, respectful and follow a set of rules set out by the ancient greeks (you can do better in the modern day). It's sad that we didn't manage to reach a consensus of sorts.

In political positions consensus is impossible. Political positions are no matters of personal preferences, they are the matters of benefits. If one lived in Nazi Germany, he would be against Jews (if he is not a Jew himself), even if he finds Jews smart and useful, because otherwise he can be prosecuted. If one seeks for citizenship in a foreign state, he would act as if he respects, aggrees and supports all the laws, regulations (and the ones who have passed these laws and regulations) and officially encouraged (there may be ones that are discouraged and prosecuted) customs, traditions and lifestyles of that state. Most of states by now even require an oath of this to get a citizenship. If one "owns" property, especially the one on which his well-being depends, he would support everyone who already can deprive him of this property easily if wanted. If one lives in a state that de-facto prosecutes for not supporting its actions enough, even if the actions harms him, he would support them. It is absolutely useless to discuss this, it cannot be changed, to change one's political position one would have to reboot their life from a negative level (assumming that newborn children start from 0).

consider that what you classify as totalitarian countries actually fall under unregulated government intervention

The state has issued the regulations (laws, acts) allowing it to do the things it does. Of course, it is regulated, by the law the state itself has made (which is de-facto equivalent to unregulated, the only difference that the state has to print pieces of paper documenting what it would do). A state which is regulated externally (i.e. by any other state) is not a souvereign state. A state which is regulated by its people is not a state at all.

[cmpunches]

What does any of this have to do with addressing harassment of our signatories?

[appetrosyan]

So basically, what I'm saying is that we are protected by laws. @KOLANICH claims that these laws are moot. None of this matters, because the issue is closed.

[cmpunches]

Anyway, disregarding all of that dribble, I would like to see some kind of resource setup separately from this project but referenced in an issue somewhere like this one where folks can track/report harassment or any kind of extra-curricular activity that should be resulting in either criminal charges or litigation (to the maximum extent of the law, including class actions) -- or frankly, just publicity. Exposure of poor behaviour generally shuts it down pretty quickly, and often has consequences further down the line.

[nemobis]

I would like to see some kind of resource

Realistically, not much can be done about the general issue. However it could be useful to link some resources for people who fear they'll be discriminated for their opinions: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/Pages/HumanRightsintheWorld.aspx https://www.ilo.org/global/standards/subjects-covered-by-international-labour-standards/freedom-of-association/lang--en/index.htm https://www.ilo.org/empent/areas/business-helpdesk/faqs/WCMS_DOC_ENT_HLP_BDE_FAQ_EN/lang--en/index.htm

[cmpunches]

That's just not the case at all. There are tons of recourse for that kind of behaviour; I would appreciate you not conditioning people to be soft targets.