Closed Andhrabharati closed 1 year ago
Now, there are 292 entries in my ab list (excl. the 8 above mentioned), and I've marked all of them individually as <ab n="xxx">AAA</ab>
; these can be later changed to regular local and global ab tags based on the no. occurrences (if required).
I have tried to expand the abbr.s in German itself; probably they could be rendered in English as well (by someone).
Here is the list of 292 ab entries that I've made-- GRA ab tags.txt
And, this has few doubtful entries that need to be checked again and confirmed--
<ab n="concretes ??">concret.</ab>
<ab n="das ??">d.</ab>
<ab n="des ??">d.</ab>
<ab n="dort ??">d.</ab>
There sure would be possible errors in my marking, and someone more familiar with German needs to check the entries once.
Just resolved one of the 8 ab entries, by chance--
<ab n="Priyamedha">Pr.</ab>
I feel the plural and singular do not occur simultaneously, so the <ab>p.</ab> <ab>s.</ab>
under L-9851 (entry: suprajA)
<div n="TS">-ā́s [<ab n="Nominativ">N.</ab> <ab>p.</ab> <ab>s.</ab>] vayám {346,6} (siāma).
could be changed as
<div n="TS">-ā́s [<ab n="Nominativ">N.</ab> <ab n="plural">p.</ab>] <ab n="siehe">s.</ab> vayám {346,6} (siāma).
[There are few other places where such cf. strings for example citations are present in the whole text.]
@Andhrabharati Have requested Thomas to look at 'ab expansion pending'. And will request his help on others, as he is able to respond.
Another resource might be @fxru at Cologne.
I feel the plural and singular do not occur simultaneously, so the
<ab>p.</ab> <ab>s.</ab>
under L-9851 (entry: suprajA)<div n="TS">-ā́s [<ab n="Nominativ">N.</ab> <ab>p.</ab> <ab>s.</ab>] vayám {346,6} (siāma).
could be changed as<div n="TS">-ā́s [<ab n="Nominativ">N.</ab> <ab n="plural">p.</ab>] <ab n="siehe">s.</ab> vayám {346,6} (siāma).
[There are few other places where such cf. strings for example citations are present in the whole text.]
I considered the placement of ']' again, and decided to change [N. p. s.] as [N. p m.] as the word-form under discussion is a plural masculine.
And, this has few doubtful entries that need to be checked again and confirmed--
<ab n="concretes ??">concret.</ab>
<ab n="das ??">d.</ab>
<ab n="des ??">d.</ab>
<ab n="dort ??">d.</ab>
Here are the places that these are marked, for checking by someone--
<ab n="concretes ??">concret.</ab>
-- 3 places
<L>3637<pc>0517<k1>tan<k2>ta/n
4〉 <ab n="concretes ??">concret.</ab>, die {%Nachkommenschaft,%} die {%Kinder%} (collectiv).
<L>6388<pc>0939<k1>Buj<k2>Bu/j
[Page940]
3〉 <ab n="concretes ??">concret.</ab> der {%Geniessende%}.
<L>7298<pc>1145<k1>ranti<k2>ra/nti
2〉 <ab n="concretes ??">concret.</ab> {%Erfreuer%}.
<ab n="das ??">d.</ab>
-- 1 place
<L>6437<pc>0955<k1>Bf<k2>Bf
[Page957]
<div n="Pf">{@sám@} 1〉 {%zusammenziehen, zusammenlegen%} (ein Gewebe); 2〉 <ab n="medium">me.</ab> {%zusammenklappen%} (<ab n="das ??">d.</ab> Kinnbacken);
<ab n="des ??">d.</ab>
-- 1 place
<L>508<pc>0057<k1>anIka<k2>a/nIka
[Page58]
<div n="TS">-am 1〉 máma (<ab n="des ??">d.</ab> Indra) {874,3}.
<ab n="dort ??">d.</ab>
-- 1 place
<L>7677<pc>1214<k1>vayas<k2>2. va/yas
Verbunden mit bṛhát in den Bedeutungen 4—6; uttamá 4 und 7; revát 5—7; citrá 6 (<ab n="siehe unter">s. u.</ab> <ab n="dort ??">d.</ab>).
There is another place where a ?? is marked--
<L>7098<pc>1108<k1>yAtuDAna<k2>yAtu-DA/na
<div n="TS">-asya {913,??} tvácam {5}. mū́lam {10}. bálam {25}.
I would suggest changing this as
<div n="TS">-asya tvácam {913,5}. mū́lam {10}. bálam {25}.
to be in uniformity with the (single digit) padded links everywhere else.
@funderburkjim
Pl. get the above points also confirmed by someone.
This would make the issue closable.
<ab>Ds.</ab>
;;could it be Deutestamme? under L-1204 (entry: avyat)<div n="TS">
-atyai [<ab>Ds.</ab> <ab n="femininum">f.</ab>
] {921,5} me (urváśyai).
Here Ds. is a print error, and should have been D. s. (Dativ singular)
<div n="TS">
-atyai [<ab n="Dativ">D.</ab> <ab n="singular">s.</ab> <ab n="femininum">f.</ab>
] {921,5} me (urváśyai).
<ab n="siehe">s.</ab>
So this is an example where the 's.' abbreviation means 'siehe - please refer', instead of the (usual) meaning of 'singular.' Such 'abbreviation ambiguity' probably explains why you chose to everywhere use the 'n=' form of abbreviation markup (since the 'n=' form removes ambiguity).
You got me right, @funderburkjim !
Here is the full list of such abbr.s--
<ab n="Accusativ">A.</ab>
<ab n="Aryama">A.</ab>
<ab n="Karañja">K.</ab>
<ab n="Kutsa">K.</ab>
<ab n="Mitra">M.</ab>
<ab n="Mātaríśva">M.</ab>
<ab n="Palasti">P.</ab>
<ab n="Participium">P.</ab>
<ab n="Variante">Var.</ab>
<ab n="Varuna">Var.</ab>
<ab n="Viśvāmitra">V.</ab>
<ab n="Vocativ">V.</ab>
<ab n="Vorige">V.</ab>
<ab n="das">d.</ab>
<ab n="der">d.</ab>
<ab n="des">d.</ab>
<ab n="dort ??">d.</ab>
<ab n="dual">d.</ab>
<ab n="femininum">f.</ab>
<ab n="folgende">f.</ab>
<ab n="masculinum">m.</ab>
<ab n="mit">m.</ab>
<ab n="nach">n.</ab>
<ab n="neutrum">n.</ab>
<ab n="siehe">s.</ab>
<ab n="singular">s.</ab>
<ab n="und">u.</ab>
<ab n="unter">u.</ab>
<ab n="vom">v.</ab>
<ab n="von">v.</ab>
<ab n="vorige">v.</ab>
From the context (of the citations), it looks like <ab>pp.</ab>
stands for "plurals" [English] (more than two of different types/entities, as against the plural indicating many of the same type/entity).
But, what is the German equivalent of such term?
Looks like ms. indicates "manuscriptum" [the std. abbr. form being Ms.], that has the variant form shown [sāyiám, sāpiám].
<ab>Gm.</ab>
;; appears to be some person's name (Scientific nomenclature) under L-3187 (entry: cakravAka) Anas Casarca<ab>Gm.</ab>
<ab>Gm.</ab>
stands for Gmelin (Johann Friedrich Gmelin), who has published his work in 1789.
Pl. get the above points also confirmed by someone.
Regarding help from German language people (such as @maltenth or @fxru , maybe @gasyoun ?) for abbreviation tooltips and (perhaps other questions).
The timing is uncertain for receipt of such help .
We should proceed under the assumption that such help will NOT be available.
I am looking for the <ab>hzv.</ab>
(in the pending list posted at the beginning); all others are not so compulsory!
I looked through the abbreviations, and none seemed completely implausible, but without context it's very difficult to say anything definite.
pp. is used as an abbreviation for "and so forth" (see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/etc._pp. would that fit the context? I haven't seen it as "plurals" but I wouldn't rule it out.
In general, 19th and.early 20th century lexicographical German has some unusual abbreviations.
@fxru Hi! Very timely to see your note. Maybe @Andhrabharati can work with you to resolve his questions regarding abbreviations -- This would include providing context in some form useable to you. Maybe a copy of his current version of grassman digitization?
Yes, we can do that. I can make a list of more unusual abbreviations where checking in context might improve things.
(Ignoring any abbreviations of personal names or of literary works.)
And then we go from there.
@fxru As I understand, the form "and so forth" is used when the remaining "tail-enders" are not listed/mentioned; but the context in the citation(s) mentioned all the involved persons as group(s).
Hence I interpreted pp. to mean something related to "plurals".
Sounds very reasonable, I haven't seen "pp" as plurals, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. (I looked at the lists yesterday on my computer, but I'm currently writing on my phone, I'll take a better look later, when I'm back at my desk.)
@fxru
Pl. look for the hzv. which I have taken as the last important pending item in my above queries.
Let me see if the hzv. could be from Latin (taking a clue from your above post reg. pp.).
Sounds very reasonable, I haven't seen "pp" as plurals, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. (I looked at the lists yesterday on my computer, but I'm currently writing on my phone, I'll take a better look later, when I'm back at my desk.)
@fxru
We know that p. is mostly used to abbreviate "plural" in Grassmann's dictionary; my interpretation of pp. as plurals is analogous to Codd. (Codices) vs. Cod. (Codice) used in the same work. The last letter in the abbr. gets repeated to indicate plurality/multiplicity.
Some cases of similar (and familiar) ones, though not occurring in GRA, are qq.vv.
/ qq.v.
/ q.vv.
vs. q.v.
& et seq.
vs. et seqq.
; and of course the very popular one p.
(page) vs. pp.
(pages) which is used in many works, incl. GRA!!
In other German 19th century dictionaries hzv. is an abbreviation for Huzvaresh or huzvâresh (apparently an old name for Pahlavi) would that work in these contexts?
Yes @fxru, that fits the context perfectly; thanks for finding this out.
In my present work, it shall be taken as "Middle Persian [as termed by Mayrhofer, mp. = mittelpersisch / Middle Persian].
Middle Persian, also known as Pahlavi, was in use from about A.D. 250 to 900. It was the official language of the Sassanid Empire and of the Zoroastrian priesthood. It was written in an ideographic script called Huzvaresh.
I looked through the abbreviations, and none seemed completely implausible, but without context it's very difficult to say anything definite.
pp. is used as an abbreviation for "and so forth" (see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/etc._pp. would that fit the context? I haven't seen it as "plurals" but I wouldn't rule it out.
In general, 19th and.early 20th century lexicographical German has some unusual abbreviations.
@fxru
I was very hasty in my earlier post(s) saying that the involved citations contain the full list, and nothing like etc. to mean the "tail-enders" & tried to hang on to my interpretation of "plurals". Though I am right so far as the citations themselves are concerned, the GRA text has only the first entity of the list, and indicated the rest by pp.
When I finally tried to mark the abbr.s in my file, noticed this gross error on my side; really sorry for not having listened to you carefully and go through the text before posting my responses.
The expansion perge, perge
is what is befitting at these places.
Now, I request you to check the items at https://github.com/sanskrit-lexicon/GRA/issues/27#issuecomment-1574658187 for which I am attaching the scan portions below--
<ab n="concretes ??">concret.</ab>
-- 3 places
<ab n="das ??">d.</ab>
-- 1 place
or could this be der here?
<ab n="des ??">d.</ab>
-- 1 place
[There are 76 places in GRA having "des Indra".]
<ab n="dort ??">d.</ab>
-- 1 place
[There are 72 places in GRA having "siehe dort".]
With these resolved, my present work on GRA will be finished (to satisfaction) to hand over to @funderburkjim for further processing.
@Andhrabharati
@maltenth provided several comments on abbreviations: Thanks, Thomas!
<ab>Ds.</ab> ;;could it be Deutestamme?
under L-1204 (entry: avyat)
<div n="TS">-atyai [<ab>Ds.</ab> <ab n="femininum">f.</ab>] {921,5} me (urvásyai).
it could be, but it is "Deutestamm" (Deutestamm*e* being the Dative Singular form)
There are 34 occurences of "Deutest*" in grassmann, but only one abbreviated form "Ds.".
So probably "Ds." should be changed into "Deutestamm". How would that work?
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>Gm.</ab> ;; appears to be some person's name (Scientific nomenclature)
under L-3187 (entry: cakravAka)
Anas Casarca <ab>Gm.</ab>
"Gm." stands for "Gmelin", the editor of Linnaeus' Systema Naturae, in biological taxonomy the
abbreviation of the first to discover a species is added to to the scientific name, or something like that,
so the abbr. "Gm." (occurs once in gras) should be kept? And maybe the tooltip gives the full name?
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>Pr.</ab>
under L-6077 (entry: priyameDa)
<div n="TS">-avát (wie <ab>Pr.</ab>) {45,3}.
"Pr." occurs twice and stands for "Pra1tis4." (2x) which stands for "Pra1tis4akhya" (once), usually preceded
by "RV" for "R2gveda"
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>antreff.</ab>
under L-1210 (entry: 1. aS)
<div n="TS">-ávamahai 1> jivám (lebend <ab>antreff.</ab>) {923,17}.
funny abbreviation, this "antreff." (1x), should stand for "antreffen"; "lebend antreffen" means "find
[that someone is still] alive [when the speaker goes to meet him]";
shouldn't be abbreviated; maybe the meaning of "-ávamahai" can help to elucidate this matter
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>hzv.</ab>
under L-10215 (entry: stana)
fstana ist aus pi-stana (<ab>hzv.</ab> <ab n="und so weiter">u. s. w.</ab> pistan)
Thank you, Felix!
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>ms.</ab>
under L-4852 (entry: namI)
(sayiám, oder sapiám nach <ab>ms.</ab> <ls>Chambers</ls> {60})
"ms." = "manuscript" is the usual abbreviation (occurs once)
"Chambers" stands for the Sanskrit manuscript collection of Robert Chambers (1737-1803) a catalogue of which was
compiled by Friedrich Rosen, published 1837
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>part.</ab> <ab>n.</ab>
under L-392 (entry: an)
<ab>part.</ab> <ab>n.</ab>, {%das Beseelte%}.
part. n. ??
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>p.</ab> <ab>s.</ab>
under L-9851 (entry: suprajA)
<div n="TS">-a´s [<ab n="Nominativ">N.</ab> <ab>p.</ab> <ab>s.</ab>] vayám {346,6} (siama).
N. p. s.
"N." could be "Nomen" N.p. = proper noun
------------------------------------------------------------------
<ab>pp.</ab>
under L-6408 (entry: BUmi)
(dyaús <ab>pp.</ab>)
under L-6861 (entry: mI)
mitrám <ab>pp.</ab> {915,8. 9}.
under L-9156 (entry: sajozas)
agnís <ab>pp.</ab> {891,1}; aryama´ <ab>pp.</ab> {952,1}.
Thank you @maltenth, for taking pains to look into this.
Your explanation about antreffen gave me the idea to refer to Grassmann's own translation of Rigveda; and indeed he had used a similar term (treffen)!!
RV [923,17]
And Geldner has used the exact word (antreffen) in his translation
RV [10,97,17]
It appears that @gasyoun has the Geldner's Germ. Tr. which is being used for CDSL RV citations' linking--
RV [923,17] (https://sanskrit-lexicon.github.io/rvlinks/rvhymns/rv10.097.html#rv10.097.17)
Vom Himmel herabfliegend sprachen die Kräuter: Wen wir am Leben antreffen werden, der Mann soll nicht zu Schaden kommen.
As to the other abbreviations, I have different opinion(s) and revert back after looking at them closely once again.
<ab>Pr.</ab>
under L-6077 (entry: priyameDa)<div n="TS">-avát (wie <ab>Pr.</ab>) {45,3}.
"Pr." occurs twice and stands for "Pra1tis4." (2x) which stands for "Pra1tis4akhya" (once), usually preceded by "RV" for "R2gveda"
Wherever Rigveda-Prātiśākhya is referred to, RV. is invariably preceding Pr. and the citation position is present next to it (in GRA)--
<ls>RV. Prātiś.</ls> {255. 371}
; <ls>RV. Prātiś. M. M.</ls> {s. 465}
and <ls>RV. Pr.</ls> {104,16}
------------------------------------------------------------------
Now coming to my interpretation of <ab>Pr.</ab>
, there are 3 places where wie <ab>xxx</ab>
is present--
<div n="TS">-avát (wie <ab n="Priyamedha">Pr.</ab>) {45,3}.
under <L>6077<pc>0891<k1>priyameDa<k2>priya/-meDa
[Geld. Tr.] Wie von Priyamedha, wie von Atri, von Virupa, o Jatavedas, wie von Angiras, so erhöre den Ruf des Praskanva, du Hochgebietender!
<div n="TS">-avát wie <ab n="Bharadvāja">Bharadv.</ab> {506,6}.
under <L>6317<pc>0928<k1>BaradvAja<k2>Bara/d-vAja
[Geld. Tr.] Leuchte uns auf, Himmelstochter, wie ehedem, für den, der gleich Bharadvaja dich verehrt, du Gabenreiche! Gewähre dem Sänger einen Schatz von Meistern, verleih uns sich weiterstreckenden Ruhm!
and
<div n="TS">-ivát (yayātivát) wie <ab n="Yayāti">Y.</ab> {31,17}.
under <L>7062<pc>1098<k1>yayAti<k2>yayA/ti
[Geld. Tr.] Wie bei Manu, o Agni, wie bei Angiras, du Angiras, wie bei Yayati, wie früher an deinem Sitze, du Reiner- komm herbei, fahre das göttliche Volk her, laß es sich auf das Barhis setzen und opfere dem lieben!
Hope this clears the point on <ab>Pr.</ab>
!!
concret.
I read that as concretum (so nomen concretum as opposed to nomen abstractum).
or could this be der here?
Yes, genitive der Kinnbacken is correct and the most natural. (Kinnbacken are the side part of the chin covering the submental glands ... I'm not sure what collapsing of that part of the face could mean, but that's what it says.
[There are 76 places in GRA having "des Indra".]
I would read the same here, but a little larger snippet of the entry might make things clearer
s. u. d.
I'm not sure what s. u. d. could mean s. u. "siehe unten" ("see below") is very common, "siehe dort" ist also not unusual, but I have never seen s. u. d. nor could I find any instance of s. u. d. in other works.
part. n. under L-392 (entry: an)
part. n. , {%das Beseelte%}.
Maybe participium (or Partizip) and neutrum? It would fit das Beseelte which is the neuter form of the participle besselt (here used as a noun).
Great help, @fxru!
Now that all my queries are answered, I can have a peaceful sleep tonight!!
Thanks for the very helpful presentation of the abbreviations with snippets of scans and everything!
Now, there are 292 entries in my ab list (excl. the 8 above mentioned), and I've marked all of them individually as
<ab n="xxx">AAA</ab>
; these can be later changed to regular local and global ab tags based on the no. occurrences (if required).
At the end, the abbr. count in my file is now 299.
Here are the counts of abbr.s, in alphabetical order, having different expansions [groups having very smaller counts (of each item) are ignored!]--
@funderburkjim may decide whether to retain the expansions completely as I did, or make the larger count abbr.s as global and the rest as the local abbr.s when he takes up my file; and with this my work on GRA is over for now.
"ms." = "manuscript" is the usual abbreviation (occurs once) "Chambers" stands for the Sanskrit manuscript collection of Robert Chambers (1737-1803) a catalogue of which was compiled by Friedrich Rosen, published 1837
Let us first make a note of "CHAMBERS, Sir ROBERT (1737–1803), Indian judge" vs. "CHAMBERS, ROBERT (1802–1871), Edinburgh publisher" in the Dictionary of National Biography.
Now coming to Rosen's catalogue--
Friedrich August Rosen (1805-1837) did indeed prepare a catalogue of the Chambers collection in 1832,
that got printed in 1838 in London;
but this appears to be not "properly" organised/done. See what this has for the works referred in GRA as Chambers 60 and 61.
The catalogue is later thoroughly revised (or probably prepared afresh) by someone else ("D. F.") in 1841,
as a notice for an auction of the collection in London by the Lady Chambers (in 1842)
that contained the popular references to the collection's titles.
However, it is the Weber's catalogue that made the contents of the works (in the collection) with a different number (of Royal library, but duly cross-ref. them to this 1841 catalogue numbers) "properly" presented to the scholars world-over.
[Note. (Chambers 69.) is a print error for (Chambers 60.) in here!!]
[And it is not out of context, to mention that Weber's Descriptive catalogue made itself a standard 'style' once it got published, providing/highlighting all the useful and necessary details.]
Thus, we can safely conclude that the Lady Chambers' auction at London got purchased by the Royal Library of Berlin.
Grassmann says thus, in his Worterbuch--
acknowledging the Royal Library, Berlin, for having lent him these two Padapāṭha manuscripts.
but I have never seen s. u. d. nor could I find any instance of s. u. d. in other works.
@fxru
Just like to mention to you that PWG has s. u. d. at 52 places, followed by W. (Wort/Word) or Ww. (Worten/Words).
Here are the first ones (of each type) in the PWG set--
[PWG1-0130]
[PWG1-0401]
Any thoughts now, about resolving the "dort ??", as my initial guess?
Ah, that changes the whole thing! Then it's in all likelihood :
s.u.d.W. -> siehe unter diesem Wort
s.u.d.Ww. -> siehe unter diesen Wörtern
So see this/that entry
Wonderful!
@funderburkjim, pl. make a note of this; in GRA's context, the plural form "siehe unter diesen/see under those" is applicable.
The new catalogue of Chambers collection was prepared by Dr. Forbes [D. F.]--
pl. make a note of this; in GRA's context, the plural form "siehe unter diesen/see under those" is applicable.
@Andhrabharati Are there instances in GRA of s.u.d.W. and/or s.u.d.W.w ?
No; this is reg. the "dort ??" expansion, under L-7677.
<ab n="siehe unter">s. u.</ab> <ab n="dort ??">d.</ab>
is to be replaced by
<ab n="siehe unter diesen">s. u. d.</ab>
@funderburkjim
Just noted this in PTS Pali-English Dictionary-- ∼ and ≈ means "at similar" or "at identical, parallel passages"
This expansion could be adopted in GRA also, for ⁓ [U+2053] which is used (twice) exactly for the same purpose. But how and where, as an abbr. or …? PTS has it in "Typographical" (symbols) section under the List of abbreviations
[Ref. the earlier issue reg. the same point.]
Ah, that changes the whole thing! Then it's in all likelihood :
s.u.d.W. -> siehe unter diesem Wort
s.u.d.Ww. -> siehe unter diesen Wörtern
So see this/that entry
@fxru
As I am now on pwk "overhaul" (attending to various markups, abbr.s and ls-entites), stumbled upon this--
<div n="p">— Mit {#punar#} <ab>s.u.</ab> diesem Worte.
[pwk Vol.4, p.273]
Just FYI, that you had almost resolved it to the same here in GRA. What's the difference between Wort and Worte?
I have marked 4 such places in pwk, based on this p. 273 reference--
<div n="p">— Mit {#tiras#} <ab>s.u.d.</ab> <ab n="Worte">W.</ab>
<div n="p">— Mit {#puras#} <ab>s.u.d.</ab> <ab n="Worte">W.</ab>
<hom>2.</hom> {#barh#}¦, {#barha/ti#} (vom <ab>Simpl.</ab> nur {#bfha/nta#}, <ab>s.u.d.</ab> <ab n="Worte">W.</ab>) *{#bfMhati#}, *{#barhati#} ({#bfdDO#}).
<div n="p">— Mit {#Avis#} <ab>s.u.d.</ab> Worte.
What's the difference between Wort and Worte?
I found some answer here- https://blogs.transparent.com/german/the-curiosity-of-the-plural-of-das-wort/
The distinction is so subtle, between the different usages. One has to be cautious to get the correct one depending on the context!!
@funderburkjim In my current reworking, marked and identified almost all the occurrences, except a few (8) that need to be "deciphered". ab expansion pending.txt
Request someone to have a look at these and resolve.
-------------------------------------------
Also I had separated out languages from the regular abbr. list. GRA lang tags with expansion.txtThe Person numbers, which have a role in inflexion etc., are also separated out. GRA pe tags.txt