VN missing pages

[funderburkjim]

In #37, there is begun discussion of the supplementary sections of PWG. If I understood @Andhrabharati properly, only volume 5 VN section is typed as part of pwg digitization.

Can we develop a plan of how to a) digitize (type) the missing VN pages and b) make use of the digitization

Let's constrain that discussion here. I think @sanskritisampada can help with the typing, but we must develop the required format. @Andhrabharati Can you design the format in which the text should be typed?

[Andhrabharati]

. If I understood @Andhrabharati properly, only volume 5 VN section is typed as part of pwg digitization.

No, I was saying V1-V4 and V6 to be missing, which are small.

The VN entries for Vol. 1-4 that are present 5-0937 onwards are typed (364 pp. - 728 columns) [after Vol. 5 main text; no integration done] The VN entries for Vol. 1-7 that are present 7-1685 onwards are typed (69 pp. - 138 columns) [after Vol. 7 main text; no integration done]

The large portions that are in V5 and V7 are in the text already.

BTW, I found a scan by Cologne itself that has a very small portion in V5, indicating corrections to the VN pages in it. This portion is missing, but seen that almost all these (except one or two entries) are present in V7 VN pages again. Reason UNKNOWN.

[Andhrabharati]

You should go through all my posts at this PWG 37. (No need to type these VN pages now, but just to bring them into the current format. These are all, except the above mentioned V5 one, lying in the original typed format in one place.)

Looks like you are reading them (my posts) just one at a time!!

[Andhrabharati]

BTW, I found a scan by Cologne itself that has a very small portion in V5, indicating corrections to the VN pages in it. This portion is missing, but seen that almost all these (except one or two entries) are present in V7 VN pages again. Reason UNKNOWN.

This is the "extra" page from PWG Vol.5, that I was talking about above. Pages from Vol.5 (841).pdf Wonder what is the source for this.

All other versions of scans and the physical book have this page. Pages from Vol.5 (839).pdf Interestingly the matter in this page is not fully in the top portion of above scan!!

[funderburkjim]

Volume 7 supplements cumulative.

almost all these (except one or two entries) are present in V7 VN pages again. Reason UNKNOWN.

Discussed this with Thomas. Here is my understanding. Volume 7 supplement is cumulative; in particular, it contains supplements from previous volumes.

We can test this by comparing the above pdf from vol.5 (841) to the V7 VN pages. Some examples follow:

Example 1: ativartavya

V5 almost same as V7

Vol 5 (841):

Vol 7: Page 7-1691

Example 2: utpuMsay

V5 same as V7

Vol 5(841):

Vol 7 7-1715

Example 3: pAriBAzika

Here, there is a difference between vol 5 and vol 7 supplements:

Vol 5 (841):

Vol 7 7-1770

[funderburkjim]

pwgheader vol 5

pwgheader has has typed material identified as coming from the Nachträge u. Verbesserungen of the various volumes 1-6. For volume 5, search for 'pwg5'. Cursory comparison to Vol 5(841) above shows that all the examples of Vol 5(841) have been typed.

TODO: full comparison of v5 to v7

It would be a useful exercise to compare all of v5 to see if any others are like pAriBAzika (i.e. where v7 differs materially from v7).

[funderburkjim]

Vol 6 VN

From pwgheader, there are 60 entries in pwg6 (search 'Page06' in pwgheader) The corresponding scan is at PWG.V.6.VN Three comparisons:

• Example 1: yaTAtaTam
  • pwgheader : [Page06.040] Art. {#yaTAtaTam#} am Schluss lies {#yATAtaTya#}. compare to
  • VN7: Printed book page 7-1792] yathātatham , am Schluss zu lesen yāthātathya .
• Example 2: van
  • pwgheader: [Page06.0665] Art. 1. {#van#} Z. 7 ist «und {#vane/ma#}» zu streichen und statt dessen in der vorangehenden Zeile nach {#vanA/ni#} einzuschalten {#va/nAva#}.
  • VN7: [Printed book page 7-1799] 1. van Z. 7 «und vanema» zu streichen und st. dessen in der vorangehenden Zeile nach vanāti einzuschalten vanāva . Sp. 666, Z. 1 zu lesen vanāva st. vanema .
• Example 3: vyaD
  • pwgheader: [Page06.1442] Art. {#vyaD#} mit {#ud;#} lies {#udvidDa#}.
  • VN7:

    [Printed book page 7-1809]
    vyadh
    3) Z. 4 lies  hāsurāḥ .
    — apa
    1) yadā hi gargāṇāṃ vāhanamapaviddhaṃ tiṣṭhati leer, nicht beladen, - besetzt Pat.   ?a. a. 
    O.8,68,a. 
    — ā, partic. āviddha lange Composita enthaltend Vāmana 1, 3, 26.  anāviddha  25. 
    — ud Z. 1 lies  udviddha .
    — sam, partic. saṃviddha wohl so v. a. zusammenstossend, - fallend: dvāpara° (yugānta) Hariv. 
    11128  nach der Lesart der neueren Ausg.
    — Vgl. saṃvyādha .                  

Preliminary conclusion is that VN7 contains the material from VN6.
As with VN5, a complete comparison of all 60 items of VN6 to VN7 would be useful; e.g., to see which are like 'vyaD' (where VN7 has much additional supplementary material not present in VN6).

[funderburkjim]

VN1

The pwgheader file under 'pwg1' agrees with PWG.V.1.VN.pages.pdf.

line 9 [Page01.0010] Art. {#akUpAra,#} Z. 2 lies: 5, 39, 2. through line 235 [Page01.0974] {#upavyAKyAna#} ist in {#upa + vyAKyAna#} zu zerlegen.

agree with the first 2 pages of the pdf.

as does the next very long line of Verbesserungen in den Citaten aus dem AV. (improvements to AtharvaVeda citations`

I will continue this comparison with VN7 tomorrow.
But just looking at the first entry (akUpAra) of pwgheader for pwg1VN, this is not found in VN7. So, the hypothesis 'VN7 is cumulative for all volume supplements' appears to fail for volume 1!.

[funderburkjim]

the 'extra' page of volume 5.

This comment refers to Pages from Vol.5 (841).pdf.

As can be seen, this is at the bottom of page 1677-78.

Here is a link to the Cologne PWG scans at page 1677

Note the 'next' page is 6-0001 (beginning of volume 6). So, this 5-1677/8 is the last page of volume 5, acc. to Cologne scans.

I don't know where the number '841' comes from.

Note the 'pwg5' items in pwgheader digitize the items identified as vebesserungen (corrections) at bottom of page 5-1677-78.

Note Page 5-1677/8 is the last of a massive VN (correction/addition) section for volumes 1-5 which starts at page 5-0937. (the actual correction/addition entries start at 5-0941; 5-0937 is just a title, 5-0939 is blank.)

The supplemental entries start with headword 'a' on 5-0941 and end with headword 'mluc' on 6-1678.

All these supplemental entries are digitized and already part of the current Cologne digitization pwg.txt.

The handful of entries (ativartavya, etc.) at the bottom of 5-1677 are digitized (in pwgheader) but are not part of pwg.txt.

I think it would be consistent with current handling to insert ativartavya, etc. in the digitization just after 'mluc', as additional L-numbers (i.e., insert pwgheader material for pwg5 after converting to current format of pwg.txt).

[funderburkjim]

@andhrabharati - What is the source of the PWG Suppplement pages (such as PWG V.1 VN pages.pdf) that you have uploaded? Similarly for other volumes you mention in #37.

Are they somewhere on Cologne server? or did you scan them?

[Andhrabharati]

I have the physical books with me; but I did not have to scan them, as I have collected multiple scans as available on the net and also from few private personal collections.

I guess you too can get most of these scans from Archive.org and Google books.

[Andhrabharati]

BTW, I have corrected all the VN lines belonging to those 1000+ lines I mentioned above. The typed text had many errors. And also had split the "AV list" in Vol.1 into individual entries.

If you wish, I can post my file here.

[funderburkjim]

Yes, please post your corrected lines here.

[Andhrabharati]

Here it is- PWG VN text (Vol.s 1-6).txt [Need to fill in the actual HW at every line in this yet.]

[Andhrabharati]

I had stopped working any more, taking that you might not be liking the way of my work and posts (as there was no reaction from you for almost two months- even after you had switched to other works from the AP90 in which you mentioned to be deeply inside to do any other work).

[funderburkjim]

I've uploaded your file here.

It looks to be closely comparable to the text of pwgheader.txt, but with formatting differences.

Do you have a way to determine which of the 600+ lines have corrections to the 'many errors' you mention.

[funderburkjim]

you might not be liking the way of my work and posts

I think you make many good observations. It is, however, often difficult to make use of these good observations because you tend to present results in a very different form from that of the digitizations. This difference in form makes it difficult for me to know where substantive changes should be made. Until some resolution of this formal problem occurs, I probably will not make as much use of your input as it may deserve. But, to repeat, I do value your insights and hope you will continue to find it interesting to provide suggestions for improving the Cologne sanskrit-lexicon.

As to the style of your posts, I would say you have become less aggressive in comparison to several months ago; and I appreciate that, and hope the style of your posts becomes even more friendly and collaborative over time.

[funderburkjim]

Location of VN material - more details (vols 1-4)

Some details regarding the untyped VN from volumes 1-4 and 6.
Volumes 5 and 7 have been typed and are part of the digitization. Due to the cumulative nature of 5 and 7 VN sections, we may or may not decide to include the VN from 1-4 and 6; yet to be decided. These details are repetitive of many of @Andhrabharati's observations in #37.

• VN pwg1 (akUpAra, etc.) after Ozmya, L=14148. After page 1-1142. 3 scan pages.
• VN pwg2 (akaruRa, etc) after Cyu, L=26305, After page 2-1100. 2 scan pages.
  • A section of VN of vol 1 and a section for V of vol 2.
• VN pwg3 (jaMh, etc.) after DvraR, L=37259, After page 3-1012. 2 scan pages.
  • Mostly 3rd part VN. Only 1 (koka) entry re VN2
• VN pwg4 () appears at the beginning of volume 4, before 'na', L=37260. 2 scan pages.
  • The form of most of these differs, starting with 'Sp. ...' TO BE DETERMINED how to read these 'Sp,' = 'Column' -- In this context, same as the 'page' number. See note below This table to be continued tomorrow.

[funderburkjim]

Copied the pdfs from #37 to pwgheader directory. This so VN materials (scans and digitizations) in same place.

[Andhrabharati]

I've uploaded your file here.

It looks to be closely comparable to the text of pwgheader.txt, but with formatting differences.

Do you have a way to determine which of the 600+ lines have corrections to the 'many errors' you mention.

These are the lines from pwg_orig.txt as I had mentioned above.

Once I found these typed, did a quick proofing of them (after converting them to Devanagari and MY formatting as done on the other text) as they are just about 10pp. to look at.

There is no way to find the changed lines, except doing a "compare" in the text editor, after stripping off the formatting in both my file and Cologne text.

[Andhrabharati]

you might not be liking the way of my work and posts

I think you make many good observations. It is, however, often difficult to make use of these good observations because you tend to present results in a very different form from that of the digitizations. This difference in form makes it difficult for me to know where substantive changes should be made. Until some resolution of this formal problem occurs, I probably will not make as much use of your input as it may deserve.

As I haven't got the converted files (VCP, AP90, and now PWG) from you when asked, I have got the conversion done at my end and hence did all the formatting changes as per our (AB) process; otherwise they would've been straightaway usable to you, as the MW99 of which you had done the IAST conversion for me.

[Probably you should generate all the Cologne .txt files in Devanagari at once, and upload them to this Github repo, so that I don't need to ask for them individually (when attempting the same) and then resort to my conversion when not getting a response from your side "in time". This is the only way I see, to cater to your concern in using my files.]

[Andhrabharati]

VN pwg4 () appears at the beginning of volume 4, before 'na', L=37260. 2 scan pages.

* The form of most of these differs, starting with 'Sp. ...'   TO BE DETERMINED how to read these

The Sp. here is nothing but the number over the left and right columns (Spalte) in each print page. It is just the column (Sp.) number and line (Z.) number that these VN entries are referring to.

Pl. see my post at https://github.com/sanskrit-lexicon/PWG/issues/22#issuecomment-881874133

[funderburkjim]

Thanks for clarification of 'Sp.' in these cases.

[funderburkjim]

For me to make the greatest use of your analysis, your contributions need to be compatible with the existing digitization formats used at Cologne. This compatibilty has at least two aspects:

• slp1 used for representing Devanagari text
• other formatting assumptions -- e.g. the number of lines in the file, the 'metaline format' for entries, and many other dictionary specific details.

I think it should be your responsibility as a contributor to present results that satisfy such compatibility criteria.

It should be our (my) responsibility to provide tools (python programs) to you that will help you convert from the Cologne forms to forms that you find easier to work with (such as Devanagari unicode instead of slp1).

Would you be willing to run Python programs locally ? If so, I can work to develop a 'pwg_transcode.py' program analogous to that of https://github.com/sanskrit-lexicon/MWS/tree/master/mwtranscode.

And perhaps other programs (relating to those 'other dictionary specifics') as our collaboration progresses.

[Andhrabharati]

I have already finished doing quite a large amount of cleaning and formatting during last few weeks on PWG in my style, and I highly doubt if all that can be done all over again.

So probably the collaboration may not be possible in this work, in the process you are suggesting.

[funderburkjim]

Location of VN material - more details (vols 5-7)

This concludes the table above

• VN pwg5 (ativartavya, etc.) This appears at bottom of page 5-1678.
  • There is a 'cumulative VN' published for volumes 1-5. Title page at page 5-0937 and continuing through Page 5-1678. The 'ativartavya' list begins after the last entry 'mluc' of this cumulative list.
  • The 'cumulative' list seems to be a superset of all the vol 1-4 VN sections mentioned above. That is, the items of vols 1-4 VN (as digitized as pwg1 - pwg4) are represented in the cumulative V5 list, but
    • with slightly different wording sometimes
    • with additional corrections/additions not mentioned in vol 1-4 VN.
• VN pwg6 (yaTAtaTam, etc.) Occurs at beginning of Volume 6 Could not find this page in this version of pwg Sanskrit Worterbuch 1-7
• VN 'for the whole work' (after volume 7). Appears from 7-1685 to 7-1821
  • Fully digitized in pwg.txt, appearing after last headword hvAla.
  • Does not appear to repeat the material in the cumulative part of VN 5.
  • Likely contains the VN 5 material (see ativartavya)
  • Likely contains the VN 6 (see yaTAtaTam)

[funderburkjim]

probably the collaboration may not be possible in

Sorry to hear that. How do you suggest I might be able to make use of your PWG work?

[Andhrabharati]

You may just take some 'pointers' as from my AP90 work, in this PWG as well.

But you can surely be able to use the ls data, which I would've finished in just another 4-5 days' time, had I not stopped it midway.

And this was what you had asked initially, though I have progressed way ahead than that.

[Andhrabharati]

VN pwg6 (yaTAtaTam, etc.) Could not find this page in this version of pwg Sanskrit Worterbuch 1-7

See p. 3112 of this 4779 pp. PDF

[funderburkjim]

can surely be able to use the ls data,

Please post your revisions when it is convenient to you.

p. 3112

Thanks for finding. Don't know how I missed it. Odd that the corrections for volume 6 occur at the beginning of the volume.

[Andhrabharati]

Odd that the corrections for volume 6 occur at the beginning of the volume.

see my comment as posted earlier- https://github.com/sanskrit-lexicon/PWG/issues/37#issuecomment-846417308