VCP - Degree sign needed instead of anusvAra?

[drdhaval2785]

This unusual data comes from https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/csl-apidev/servepdf.php?dict=VCP&page=0991

(1/1) dfSyam 63 . atra rUpam 1 rASiM prakalpya
(1M/2) BAgAn SezAm SezAdapAsya aTavA BAgA-
(2M/9) pavAhaviDinA savarRite jAtam . (7/60)
(1M/4) anena 1 izwaguRite 63 dfzwe . Bakte jAtaM
(6M/10) dravyapramARam . 540 . idaM vilomasUtre-
RApi siDyati . aTa viSlezajAtyudAharaRam . “paYcAM-

[drdhaval2785]

I would suggest something like the following. I am not sure. Hence asking for opinion of colleagues.

(1/1) dfSyam 63 . atra rUpam 1 rASiM prakalpya
(1°/2) BAgAn SezAm SezAdapAsya aTavA BAgA-
(2°/9) pavAhaviDinA savarRite jAtam . (7/60)
(1°/4) anena 1 izwaguRite 63 dfzwe . Bakte jAtaM
(6°/10) dravyapramARam . 540 . idaM vilomasUtre-
RApi siDyati . aTa viSlezajAtyudAharaRam . “paYcAM-

[vvasuki]

I would suggest something like the following. I am not sure. Hence asking for opinion of colleagues.

(1/1) dfSyam 63 . atra rUpam 1 rASiM prakalpya
(1°/2) BAgAn SezAm SezAdapAsya aTavA BAgA-
(2°/9) pavAhaviDinA savarRite jAtam . (7/60)
(1°/4) anena 1 izwaguRite 63 dfzwe . Bakte jAtaM
(6°/10) dravyapramARam . 540 . idaM vilomasUtre-
RApi siDyati . aTa viSlezajAtyudAharaRam . “paYcAM-

Good proposal. anusvAra following a number makes no sense.

[Andhrabharati]

It is not an anusvara, as marked in CDSL text, nor is it a degree symbol, as proposed by Dhaval.

It is a special mark used in VCP to denote a multiplier.

In this context, I would like to remind about my earlier post, regarding another symbol having been used for denoting a negative number (in VCP).

There are more such symbols employed in the mathematical portions in VCP, taken from Bhaskaracharya's works (Lilavati or Goladhyaya).

[Andhrabharati]

A better option is not to digitise all those nyAsa portions as text, but to keep them as images and insert between (or besides) the running text.

[Andhrabharati]

For easy understanding of my above remark, posting the English tr. of the resp. verse from Lilavati, showing the multiplication mark (action) at resp. places-

[vvasuki]

A better option is not to digitise all those nyAsa portions as text, but to keep them as images and insert between (or besides) the running text.

An even superior option is to just use modern understandable notation as shown in https://github.com/sanskrit-lexicon/csl-orig/issues/746#issuecomment-1043200617 . As I mentioned in https://github.com/sanskrit-lexicon/csl-ldev/pull/3#issuecomment-1042960770 , it does not make sense to fanatically stick to the formatting and presentation from 100+ years ago. Historians can see the printed text. Users just want to grok what the author wanted to communicate.

[Andhrabharati]

It is a special mark used in VCP to denote a multiplier.

I could not see any reference (in VCP) of a symbol/mark being used as a multiplier.

Then a little thinking made it clear that it is the same mark as a negative number.

Here is the "progressive" workout of the same example in a different manner--

(1 -1/2) × (1 -2/9) × (1 -1/4) × (1 -6/10) = 7/60.

This is an example for residual fractions!

[Andhrabharati]

For positive numbers, no marking ; but for negative numbers, this symbol is employed.

This is just same as the western/modern system, a negative number being marked by the minus sign.

As such this urdhvabindu is not a anusvara mark, but a combining dot above right (u+0358)!!

And, I feel this symbol should be marked thus, so that our ancient roots are not replaced by the modern/western equivalents.

This mark is not devised in VCP anew, but introduced by Bhaskaracharya himself in his Lilavati.

[vvasuki]

And, I feel this symbol should be marked thus, so that our ancient roots are not replaced by the modern/western equivalents.

१◌͘ will look like: It will be a long time before you draft a unicode proposal, get it accepted, and then convince font makers to set it right.

Degree will look ok. It's perhaps better to use it instead in the meantime.

In any case, if you want to retain it out of heritage pride, include modern equivalent notation in brackets.

[Andhrabharati]

Yes, I understand that unicode 'recognition' of a character takes lot of time and effort, and patient persuation.

For aesthetic looks, having a degree symbol is the simplest way. But doesn't that seem odd, when there are no angular quantities involved?

So, I would suggest using a preceding minus sign, which is contextually proper.

[Andhrabharati]

How about this-- १ꞏ?

Looks good & matches the context; but cannot be typed, only possible with copy&paste.

As this would be done very rarely, should be alright.

[vvasuki]

For aesthetic looks, having a degree symbol is the simplest way. But doesn't that seem odd, when there are no angular quantities involved?

Definitely odd. Someone (@Andhrabharati ?) should draft a proposal and fix this problem properly. (cc @jamadagni @sridatta1 @virtualvinodh who might be able to help)

How about this-- १ꞏ?

Seems ok.

[vvasuki]

@Andhrabharati भोः- भवत्परिचयं प्रेप्सामि। xxxxxxx इत्यत्र सन्देशम् प्रेषयतु - टॆलिग्रामि वाट्साप्पि वा।

[Andhrabharati]

I saw your activities at github, and posts at BVP, @vvasuki.

You definitely are a knowledgeable person; but too aggressive at times.

Unfortunately I don't talk much, nor like to go public. (You know 'us' at andhrabharati.com in a different context!!)

We can interact through mails, as we have some common thoughts and interests, if you like.

[vvasuki]

Unfortunately I don't talk much, nor like to go public. (You know 'us' at andhrabharati.com in a different context!!)

We can interact through mails, as we have some common thoughts and interests, if you like.

एवम् अस्तु। विपत्रं तर्हि मे प्रेषय।

[Andhrabharati]

You can reach me at knbrao@gmail.com

[gasyoun]

You definitely are a knowledgeable person; but too aggressive at times.

It's the first time @Andhrabharati admits one can be aggressive in lexicography )) I like you both.

For aesthetic looks, having a degree symbol is the simplest way.

Let's go for it.

Yes, I understand that unicode 'recognition' of a character takes lot of time and effort, and patient persuation.

Up to 5 years and P. Scharf has gone through it a lot of times.

[Andhrabharati]

You definitely are a knowledgeable person; but too aggressive at times.

It's the first time @Andhrabharati admits one can be aggressive in lexicography )) I like you both.

I am not sure if Vasuki is much into lexicographical works.

My remark is a generic one, mostly about the way he puts his arguments

[Andhrabharati]

More often than not, VCP had used the black dot.

The circular figure resembling a degree is occassional, coming under the all pervading inconsistency in its print.

Incidentally, Taranatha's other (smaller) lexical work Sabdastomamahanidhi is almost consistent throughout. (And I am half-way through in making a digital text of it.)

[gasyoun]

Sabdastomamahanidhi is almost conistent throughout. (And I am half-way through in making a digital text of it.)

Never even heard of it - of utmost interest when you finish it.

[vvasuki]

Sabdastomamahanidhi is almost conistent throughout. (And I am half-way through in making a digital text of it.)

I'd very much appreciate it if you could notify me once it's done. @drdhaval2785 and I produce and heavily use dicts in stardict format in our various devices. https://github.com/indic-dict/ and https://sanskrit-coders.github.io/dictionaries/offline/Stardict/#how-to-install-and-use-dictionaries-on-your-device

We cover dicts in many Indian languages including Telugu in that project. So, any dictionary we don't have which you can provide (preferably in babylon glossary format) will benefit users like us.

With apologies for the digression:

It's the first time @Andhrabharati admits one can be aggressive in lexicography )) I like you both.

I am not sure if Vasuki is much into lexicographical works.

Vasuki is my dad. I am Vishvas.

My remark is a generic one, mostly about the way he puts his arguments

:-D I'm nothing compared to Russians.

[Andhrabharati]

Vasuki is my dad. I am Vishvas.

Sorry that I got misled by your id (vvasuki); now you made it clear for anyone (vAsukijaH)!!

[Andhrabharati]

We cover dicts in many Indian languages

Do you have Kittel's dictionary?

DSAL has made their work public now; though still with few big errors uncorrected. (guess, you could take their text)

We had corrected its major portion at our end. (We don't share the works we takeup for hosting at andhrabharati.com; and the SSM work is not being done for that purpose, so could be shared.)

[vvasuki]

We cover dicts in many Indian languages

Do you have Kittel's dictionary?

yes

DSAL has made their work public now; though still with few big errors uncorrected. (guess, you could take their text)

Got many of those.

We had corrected its major portion at our end.

Which ones did you correct? Can you share?

(We don't share the works we takeup for hosting at andhrabharati.com;

Sad but ok.

and the SSM work is not being done for that purpose, so could be shared.)

Great!

[Andhrabharati]

Which ones did you correct? Can you share?

pl. read my above post again, contextually.

(we did the work 3 years back itself)

[Andhrabharati]

How about this-- १ꞏ?

Looks good & matches the context; but cannot be typed, only possible with copy&paste.

As this would be done very rarely, should be alright.

@vvasuki , @drdhaval2785 , @funderburkjim

This character already has a place in unicode devanagari block!

It is the one next to devanagari abbr. Sign (u+0970); but this u+0971 character is not looking as prominent/clear as the one I had proposed above (u+A78F).

[vvasuki]

It is the one next to devanagari abbr. Sign (u+0970); but this u+0971 character

Then, it's best to use that.

is not looking as prominent/clear as the one I had proposed above (u+A78F).

That's a font/ display issue - future fonts may deal with it better and substitutions before display can be made in the meantime. Should not affect what code is used (u+0971) while encoding.

[funderburkjim]

change installed at Cologne.

[Andhrabharati]

@drdhaval2785 & @funderburkjim

There are 80 more places where such condition (a number followed by anusvAra that needs this correction) is seen in the vcp.txt

[funderburkjim]

Will leave such further changes to @drdhaval2785