Closed RexJaeschke closed 3 years ago
RexJaeschke
commented
4 years ago During our recent calls, I think we said we'd like to bring to ISO 's attention our dislike for having a different numbering scheme for clauses than for annexes, the former going from 1-n across clause boundaries, and the latter starting from 1 for each annex, and having an annex number prefix. Is that correct? Let's confirm that at the next meeting.
RexJaeschke
commented
4 years ago I spent time trying to automate what ISO requires, but without success due to the way we define annex styles.
I got cross-clause numbering from 1-n to work.
When I tried to use the different approach for annex table captions, when I select "Caption numbering" it allows me to select "Include chapter number", (because annex table numbers have the form X.n), I have to chose from a drop-down list the style that starts a new annex. The only choices presented are "Heading 1" through "Heading 9". Our top-level annex style is called "Appendix 1" which while it is based on "Heading 1", it is not "Heading 1", and does not appear in the drop-down list. If I chose "Heading 1", I get 11 for all annex tables, as that is the most-recently used (highest) clause number.
Now it makes sense to use Word's built-in table captioning facility, but if we need manually set the table numbers, I think we'll have to bypass that facility. And if we do that, table numbers don't appear" as bookmarks in the cross-reference list, whose entries we'd ordinarily use in references to those tables (which we must have). So, the only solution I can see for now it to not use the caption facility, to hard-code the pseudo-captions, and to hard-code* the references to those pseudo-captions.
In Part 2, there are about 45 uses of "Table ...". Unless anyone wants to try and find an automated solution, the fallback position is to hard-code them for this revision. However, clearly that is not an option for Parts 1 and 2.
RexJaeschke
commented
4 years ago ISO wrote
table-like lists for attributes and their descriptions can be kept as they are.
This is great news for Parts 1 and 4, which have many such tables.
RexJaeschke
commented
3 years ago ISO requires figures and tables in clauses to be numbered separately, with numbers going from 1–n across all clauses, as in Figure 1, Figure 2, Table 1, Figure 3, Table 2, …, Figure M, Table N.
ISO requires figures and tables in Annexes to be numbered separately, with numbers going from 1–n for each annex, as in Annex A has Figure A.1, Figure A.2, Table A.1, …, and Annex B has Figure B.1, Figure B.2, Table B.1, ….
I contend that this cannot be done using the automated caption numbering machinery provided using Word’s “References|Insert Caption” option. One can either have numbers 1–n across the whole document, or numbers like 1.1, 1.2, … 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, … for captions in clause 1, 2, and 3, …. But one cannot have annex captions automatically numbered A.1, A.2, … because the “Insert Caption|Caption Numbering|Include chapter number|Chapter starts with style” option only allows chapters having styles “Heading 1” through “Heading 9”. And annexes cannot have such styles (which are used for clauses) because, by definition, an annex has a different format than a clause, so must have a different style. (Indeed, ISO’s simple Word template uses annex styles ANNEX, a2, a3, a4, a5, and a6, none of which can ever show up in Word’s drop-down box for caption styles.)
ISO editors, if you believe your required numbering approach can be automated using Word without the uses of intervention using fields (see below), please explain how.
By the way, I see in the ISO simple template one is asked to use for new specs, a table with caption “Table A.1 — Example”. Imagine my surprise to find that this caption is completely hardcoded! Of course, suggesting that submitters hard-code all this for their own specs would be impractical, as it defeats the whole point of using a word processor to keep track of such things during revision!
Now, all that said, I did manage to get a series of figures and tables with captions in clauses and annexes in the format ISO requires, but it wasn’t simple and it could be tedious and error-prone to use my approach on a large/complex spec. Here’s how I achieved this (see the attached sample document based on the ISO simple template):
I used Word’s “References|Insert Caption” option for all figures and tables in clauses, and that worked fine.
However, as I described above, this approach cannot be used for annexes. So, I had to resort to using the “behind-the-scenes” Word fields.
For the first figure (and similarly table) of each annex, I defined the caption as follows:
For the second and subsequent figures (and similarly tables) of each annex, I defined the caption as follows:
“ANNEX” is the name of the top-level annex style in the ISO simple template, and “\r 1” causes the number to be reset to 1 at the start of each chapter having that style.
Is that what you expect submitters to do? If so, you should provide this in the ISO simple template.
Of course, when such a spec is submitted to ISO and goes through its toolchain, when the reformatted Word comes back, all fields will have been removed, so that document can never be used as the base for a new revision!
And in producing the next edition, the submitter will have to be careful if adding a new first figure/table to an annex or deleting the first one, as the fields will have to be adjusted accordingly.
RexJaeschke
commented
3 years ago I got the Table and Figure numbering to work by using fields.
From WG4 N0441, “Plan to Make IS 29500 Parts Comply with the ISO Style Guidelines.”
The four Parts of 29500 contain many hundreds (possibly thousands) of occurrences of text organized using a Word table style; however, they are not tables, per se. Rather, they are un-numbered lists. §8.5.2.1, “Relationships Part” and §8.5.3.3, “Relationship Element” contain representative samples.
Requiring that each of those so-called tables have a title that would add no value and would never be referenced would be a very big task. Equally, requiring all of them to be reformatted as un-numbered lists would be quite unproductive. And readers have been seeing these in their current format for more than 10 years.
With respect to tables, §29.4, “Referencing”, of the ISO Part 2 Directives states, “Each table shall be explicitly referred to within the text.” Almost none of the lists organized as tables are, or needs to be, referenced in 29500. Each list simply follows on from the text that it augments. Requiring an explicit reference saying something like, “The following list augments/reinforces/supports the text above.” seems completely superfluous.
29500-2 does contain a few such lists designated as titled/numbered tables (see Table 9-1 in §9.3.1, “General”). Looking at the preamble to these tables we see the artificial means by which the up-coming table is referenced. All these instances could just as easily be done with untitled/un-numbered lists.
It appears that table numbers need to use a period separator rather than a hyphen.
To be investigated further.
ISO-039 | | 8.3.1, 8.3.8, 9.1 | Table 8-1, Table 8-2, Table 9-1 | ed | ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2, 2016, 29.3 Tables shall be designated “Table” and numbered with Arabic numerals, beginning with 1. A single table shall be designated “Table 1”. This numbering shall be independent of the numbering of the clauses and of any figures.
The tables are numbered as Table 1 to Table 3 in the DIS_edit file.