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New types for stories #2646

Open vholland opened 4 years ago

vholland commented 4 years ago

Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, etc all have the concept of "stories". With the maturation of AMP publishing tools, web sites are also publishing "stories" which blend media across a single page. Examples include:

Schema.org does not have a type that captures this idea. It would be good to have a type under CreativeWork that covers these.

I propose adding 2 new types:

SocialMediaStory: A story published on a social media platform like Facebook or Instagram. WebStory: A story published on the web.

Alternatively, these could be joined under one type, but I don't have a good name for that.

rvguha commented 4 years ago

We can come up with a name, I am sure.

I am not sure we want to distinguish between stories based on where they are published. What if a story first gets published on a social media platform and is then reproduced on a website?

guha

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 8:37 AM Vicki Tardif notifications@github.com wrote:

Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, etc all have the concept of "stories". With the maturation of AMP publishing tools, web sites are also publishing "stories" which blend media across a single page. Examples include:

Schema.org does not have a type that captures this idea. It would be good to have a type under CreativeWork that covers these.

I propose adding 2 new types:

SocialMediaStory: A story published on a social media platform like Facebook or Instagram. WebStory: A story published on the web.

Alternatively, these could be joined under one type, but I don't have a good name for that.

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vholland commented 4 years ago

Good point. I was thinking that social media often has different properties than the web, but we can add subtypes or specialized properties later if the need arises.

RichardWallis commented 4 years ago

My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article "An article, such as a news article or piece of investigative report. Newspapers and magazines have articles of many different types and this is intended to cover them all."

Looking at the National Geographic example, it does seem to stretch that definition somewhat, into the realms of a multimedia-article but I think the spirit of article is still visible.

Maybe we are looking at an addition to the list of Article subtypes.

Aaranged commented 4 years ago

My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article

While a "story" may require the use of many properties that exist in Article (or, more likely, in CreativeWork), I think this story thing is more analogous to ItemList than Article.

This because a "story" is inherently composed of component parts. Using AMP as an example, the "basic ingredients that go into an AMP story are individual pages[1]. These pages, in turn, are composed of individual layers that contain basic HTML and AMP elements." https://amp.dev/documentation/guides-and-tutorials/start/visual_story/parts_of_story/

Is this sense a "story" is less an article sub-type than an article super-type.

[1] Used because this is what AMP calls them (the component name is "amp-story-page"). Terrible nomenclature that should not be replicated in schema.org, excepting circumstances where "page" is used unambiguously to mean a physical page (e.g. Book.numberOfPages) or something that is specifically and singularly a "web page".

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 9:26 AM Richard Wallis notifications@github.com wrote:

My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article "An article, such as a news article or piece of investigative report. Newspapers and magazines have articles of many different types and this is intended to cover them all."

Looking at the National Geographic example, it does seem to stretch that definition somewhat, into the realms of a multimedia-article but I think the spirit of article is still visible.

Maybe we are looking at an addition to the list of Article subtypes https://schema.org/Article#subtypes.

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RichardWallis commented 4 years ago

Couple of thoughts...

Firstly with the use of isPartOf & hasPart 'traditional' Articles can often consist of several component parts, text, images, mediaOjects etc. However I still think what we are discussing here still stretches that concept somewhat.

The amp.dev link that @Aaranged provided demonstrates a need for what I would describe as a composite-CreativeWork. The afore mentioned isPartOf & hasPart are useful in describing the contents of and nesting CreativeWork elements. Although not impossible, the description of ordered contents and nesting has always been a cumbersome task, and would need improvement in tis context.

It is probably right to concentrate the addressing of such capabilities at the CreativeWork level to make these efforts as broadly useful as possible, using this specific use case to define a specific type and test the design.

Secondly, naming. "Story" has specific meaning in the examples referenced, but also can have broader generic meaning. We already have a ShortStory type. So I think we need to consider naming carefully.

There is also something that could be considered around a possible Page type, useful in the description of physical pages and (as a super-type) for WebPage, WebStoryPage, etc.

rvguha commented 4 years ago

We can have centi-threads on the various meanings of stories.

Lets just make it a subclass of CreativeWork and take it from there.

guha

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:46 PM Aaron Bradley notifications@github.com wrote:

My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article

While a "story" may require the use of many properties that exist in Article (or, more likely, in CreativeWork), I think this story thing is more analogous to ItemList than Article.

This because a "story" is inherently composed of component parts. Using AMP as an example, the "basic ingredients that go into an AMP story are individual pages[1]. These pages, in turn, are composed of individual layers that contain basic HTML and AMP elements."

https://amp.dev/documentation/guides-and-tutorials/start/visual_story/parts_of_story/

Is this sense a "story" is less an article sub-type than an article super-type.

[1] Used because this is what AMP calls them (the component name is "amp-story-page"). Terrible nomenclature that should not be replicated in schema.org, excepting circumstances where "page" is used unambiguously to mean a physical page (e.g. Book.numberOfPages) or something that is specifically and singularly a "web page".

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 9:26 AM Richard Wallis notifications@github.com wrote:

My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article "An article, such as a news article or piece of investigative report. Newspapers and magazines have articles of many different types and this is intended to cover them all."

Looking at the National Geographic example, it does seem to stretch that definition somewhat, into the realms of a multimedia-article but I think the spirit of article is still visible.

Maybe we are looking at an addition to the list of Article subtypes https://schema.org/Article#subtypes.

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vholland commented 4 years ago

To address some of the comments.

Like @RichardWallis, I considered Article or even ShortStory, but those tend to assume the contents are predominantly text and this concept is more about mixed media. It seems better to have a new type with properties for this idea.

I agree with @Aaranged that these are not "stories" in any traditional sense. Personally, I don't like the term, but AMP, Instagram, etc have all consolidated on it, so it seems easier to go with that then try to invent another term. I would like something that distinguishes these as stories in less traditional sense of the word, so went with WebStory.

I think at some point we (in schema.org and ontologists in general) will need to grapple with how media is changing and some of the artificial distinctions like PodcastSeries vs RadioSeries vs TVSeries are more about the technologies than the works themselves. But as @rvguha pointed out, we can argue those points for a long time and I am ultimately a pragmatist. I would like to give authors something before we take on redefining subclasses of CreativeWork.

RichardWallis commented 4 years ago

WebStory would be ok

rvguha commented 4 years ago

Why WebStory? Does it stop being a WebStory if I print it out?

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 11:45 AM Richard Wallis notifications@github.com wrote:

WebStory would be ok

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RichardWallis commented 4 years ago

Yes Good question - does a printed out ImageObject become a photograph?

To accommodate an amp story, instagram story, etc. how about MultimediaStory?

Although ’ok’ WebStory feels a bit specific to a potentially narrow use case area.

WeaverStever commented 4 years ago

A couple of thoughts,

A blog is sometimes a story, except chronology is written in the reverse order of how one might want to read it. I've looked into presenting Blogger blogs in reverse chron order, it's not a trivial thing to do. Additionally, some blogpostings in a blog series might not be relevant to the "story."

Another interesting use might be where a researcher wants to cobble together a page full of otherwise unrelated snippets to create a new story -- a cross between a wiki article and a search result?

Finally, most social media pages implement lazy-loading, where the older content is not loaded until the reader scrolls down. Being able to document and permalink the post(s), without having to scroll through pages and pages of dynamic loading after the fact, could be useful. I.e. an embed post widget with associated structured data and an adjustable episode number.

rvguha commented 4 years ago

I have photos in Google photos that were never printed. Whether a set of pixels is a photograph is a function of how it was generated.

guha

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:13 PM Richard Wallis notifications@github.com wrote:

Yes Good question - does a printed out ImageObject become a photograph?

To accommodate an amp story, instagram story, etc. how about MultimediaStory?

Although ’ok’ WebStory feels a bit specific to a potentially narrow use case area.

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vholland commented 4 years ago

MultimediaStory works for me.

rvguha commented 4 years ago

What if there is no multi-media?

The concept of a story is a very basic one. We should have a category for it and make it a subClass of CreativeWork

guha

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 8:35 AM Vicki Tardif notifications@github.com wrote:

MultimediaStory works for me.

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philbarker commented 4 years ago

Story is a very wide concept, and unless you want to include fairy stories, short stories (ShortStory), fictional tales in general and news stories (already covered by NewsArticle) it would help if the name stories from social media reflects that. All those examples can be on the web or multimedia, and arguably that's nothing to do with their fundamental nature as a fairy/short/news story.

So I preferred the original SocialMediaStory, but drop WebStory. By analogy to photographs, if it's generated through social media it stays a SocialMediaStory however it is reproduced. Likewise a ShortStory is a ShortStory whether it's told in print, on the web or orally.

vholland commented 4 years ago

@rvguha I am not sure I am following. All of the use cases I have seen are multimedia, which is why I would like a new type so we can differentiate cases where the various media components are critical to the greater work.

rvguha commented 4 years ago

How about we have Story and a subclass which is MultiMediaStory?

guha

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:19 AM Vicki Tardif notifications@github.com wrote:

@rvguha https://github.com/rvguha I am not sure I am following. All of the use cases I have seen are multimedia, which is why I would like a new type so we can differentiate cases where the various media components are critical to the greater work.

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RichardWallis commented 4 years ago

A generic CreativeWork subtype of Story "An account of imaginary or real incidents and or events" would work as a superclass for MultiMediaStory and ShortStory

vholland commented 4 years ago

Adding Story and MultiMediaStory sound good to me.

RichardWallis commented 4 years ago

@vholland any progress on his or do you want me to pick it up?

danbri commented 4 years ago

This conversation sounds like it got pretty confused, because the word "story" is used as a technical term for media-centric, ephemeral personal aspects of user interface in things like Instagram, Snapchat and numerous other platforms. But it also means "story" in the broader historical sense of the word. It looks like a lot of talking past each other is happening in this thread so far.

@vholland if there is interest in the AMP ecosystem for us to provide vocabulary to support the former, we ought to try to help. AMP makes heavy use of Schema.org for news articles and related concepts. Is there still interest? If so then "Adding Story and MultiMediaStory sound good to me." is the best sketch I've seen so far here.

vholland commented 4 years ago

There is still interest in adding MultiMediaStory. I can create a PR if that is helpful.

RichardWallis commented 4 years ago

That might be useful for folks to kick the tyres on.

I think where we go to on Feb 25th would be a good start point:

CreativeWork > Story > MultiMediaStory
.................... > ShortStory
vholland commented 4 years ago

I discussed with some folks within Google. This is targeted at AMP stories (now known as web stories). "Web stories" would be ambiguous, so I am inclined to call a horse a horse and add a new type https://schema.org/AmpStory under https://schema.org/Article.

jvandriel commented 4 years ago

To be honest I don't really agree that it's supposed to be named AmpStory and would prefer WebStory. If I look at https://wp.stories.google/ for example the focus really lies on the term 'Web Stories' and therefore expect the vast majority will be searching for a type that resembles this naming (many probably won't even be aware of AMP's part in this).

vholland commented 4 years ago

@jvandriel I went back and forth on WebStory vs AmpStory. If I search for both terms, "web story" gives many pages related to other things called web stories, but "amp story" was unambiguously about this idea. With that said, I am happy to change to WebStory if folks prefer that.

I implemented the type in PR #2719 .

danbri commented 4 years ago

Noting @jvandriel's concerns here, I think nevertheless we should start with AmpStory, because it gives us a clear thing to point to. We can leave open the possibility of adding a supertype WebStory if it emerges that there are a significant cluster of things known commonly as "web stories" which don't all stem from the AMP way of implementing them.

vholland commented 4 years ago

I created PR #2727 with the release notes.

danbri commented 4 years ago

@jvandriel - to elaborate - I argued for this having "AMP" in the name, on the basis that the only possible implementation work I'm aware of is the (AMP-based) thing. It isn't clear to me what expectations people have around "web stories" --- e.g. whether it might come to be a label for "this kind of interface style in general" regardless of implementation technology, underlying standards etc.

jvandriel commented 4 years ago

Thanks for your responses @vholland and @danbri. I understand your point of view on this and agree it might be best to go with AmpStory and leave WebStory as a possibility for more general purposes in the future.

Do wish Google had gone with AMP stories instead of Web stories though. Seems marketing all too often gets in the way of clarity (oops, did I say that ;) )

github-actions[bot] commented 3 years ago

This issue is being tagged as Stale due to inactivity.

Aaranged commented 3 years ago

Regarding the naming conversation I get why "AmpStory" was chosen.

However, I think the description that's been minted in Pending is, as a result, now insufficient:

A creative work with a visual storytelling format intended to be viewed online, particularly on mobile devices.

AMP stands for "Accelerated mobile pages", yet there's no mention of this anywhere on the page - and without it half the type's name, "Amp", will make no sense to those without that prior knowledge.

MichaelAndrews-RM commented 3 years ago

I object to this proposal, because it seems specific to a proprietary, Google-defined standard for the web, Accelerated Mobile Pages. Even Google has publicly committed to moving away from giving this formulation special treatment. See: https://themarkup.org/google-the-giant/2020/11/19/as-antitrust-pressure-mounts-google-to-pull-back-benefit-to-news-sites-that-adopted-its-preferred-mobile-technology Moreover, the formulation seems to be anti-competitive, where publishers feel they need to adopt a proprietary approach to realize performance improvements https://digiday.com/media/google-amp-likely-to-stay-in-publishers-mobile-product-plans/ I would like to a platform-agnostic proposal that doesn't talk about AMP, if this is even necessary. What is the greater good being served by this proposal?

SteveCastle commented 3 years ago

It seems unlikely that AmpStory is a good choice for a name. This type sticks out like a sore thumb amongst all of the other terms as the only one with a specific reference to implementation technology.

danbri commented 2 years ago

I've just committed a small tweak to address the media-aspect of @vholland's original request. This type now has an additional supertype of MediaObject, which makes using properties such as regionsAllowed or uploadDate natural.

https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/commit/e400cc2084c83ffe12a7dbb2e656a9520b5b789d

On SteveCastle's concern that embedding the name AMP in a schema.org term name is out of character:

newmuis commented 2 years ago

👋 Hi all, glad to see this thread! Quick disclosure: I am the facilitator of the stories working group within AMP (i.e. I lead engineering for the AMP Stories/Web Stories media format). I'm happy to help however I can, as I already spend most of my days thinking about what constitutes (or does not constitute) a story.

It would certainly be difficult to capture all of the details of the Web Stories format within schema.org metadata (and, I would expect this to be true for any single vendor), but there are some high-level pieces that are true for all stories (and perhaps also generalize better to other implementations).

I certainly defer to the schema.org experts as to how best to actually structure the schema, and which approach is best in terms of specific ➞ generic vs generic ➞ specific.

That said, I do hope we end up in a world where a generic exists, as stories are absolutely a proven, generic construct, with billions of users daily across platforms on which they surface. I'll also note that we shouldn't limit stories to their social media origin; folks like Netflix, Google, Spotify, and others have all used stories for informational use cases.

danbri commented 2 years ago

thanks! do you have a collection of examples you could share here? I mean specific files, to help illustrate the range of usecases covered, and how things look in practice...

On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 at 14:23, Jon Newmuis @.***> wrote:

👋 Hi all, glad to see this thread! Quick disclosure: I am the facilitator of the stories working group within AMP (i.e. I lead engineering for the AMP Stories/Web Stories media format).

I'm happy to help however I can, as I already spend most of my days thinking about what constitutes (or does not constitute) a story. It would certainly be difficult to capture all of the details of the Web Stories format within schema.org metadata (and, I would expect this to be true for any single vendor), but there are some high-level pieces that are true for all stories (and perhaps also generalize better to other implementations).

I certainly defer to the schema.org experts as to how best to actually structure the schema, and which approach is best in terms of specific ➞ generic vs generic ➞ specific.

That said, I do hope we end up in a world where a generic exists, as stories are absolutely a proven, generic construct, with billions of users daily across platforms on which they surface. I'll also note that we shouldn't limit stories to their social media origin; folks like Netflix https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/19/17255966/netflix-30-second-video-previews-mobile, Google https://9to5google.com/2020/10/06/google-discover-web-stories/, Spotify https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-find-spotify-wrapped, and others have all used stories for informational use cases.

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newmuis commented 2 years ago

Sure!

Here are a few web stories that utilize different features:

These are some basic properties of stories that I happened to have listed on hand; there's quite a bit more depth though. There are optional UI components that may or may not be included (e.g. HTML forms, hyperlinks, etc).

At a very high level, I would say these apply to all web stories (and likely apply more broadly to other implementations as well):

For an intermediate level of detail, I tried creating a JSON schema with some of the more-commonly used functionality (with the caveats that (a) some of these fields are purely presentational, (b) this is an unofficial schema, and (c) because it's unofficial, the doc strings aren't very comprehensive):

https://newmuis.github.io/story-schema

And for the ~full spec, see:

https://amp.dev/documentation/components/?format=stories

And as I said, definitely feel free to reach out any time, I'm happy to help!

thadguidry commented 3 weeks ago

I read through all of this. (whew!) So in the end...and at the highest level, it seems we ended this discussion with at least general agreement that:

Stories are "an ordered sequence of Creative Works". Great! AmpStory is thus perhaps more rightly phrased as "an ordered sequence of MediaObjects" or is MediaObject to narrow for best fit with AmpStory?

danbri commented 3 weeks ago

AMP seems kind of dead. Did the stories part, or this markup, get much traction?

On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 01:07 Thad Guidry @.***> wrote:

I read through all of this. (whew!) So in the end...and at the highest level, it seems we ended this discussion with at least general agreement that:

Stories are "an ordered sequence of Creative Works". Great! AmpStory is thus perhaps more rightly phrased as "an ordered sequence of MediaObjects" or is MediaObject to narrow for best fit with AmpStory?

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newmuis commented 1 week ago

I'm no longer at Google and don't fully know the current status of AMP or Web Stories. Web Stories themselves (separate from the schema markup debated in this thread) certainly did have millions of views across multiple platforms -- again I don't know any exact figures as I'm no longer at Google.

That said, I'd imagine the natural ebbs and flows of both products in the space as well as human behavior (or user needs) to be another reason to advocate for a more generic stance on the schema definition. I think of it as being akin to a video schema specifically tied to the video platforms of yesteryear -- sure they all had a moment, but the semantic definition of what constitutes a video ultimately outlives them all. Sure, even the semantic definition may evolve over time, but that can be encapsulated in a platform-agnostic way.

So, in my mind, the question to be asked is less about whether Web Stories is still being utilized (which, anecdotally, I do still see them on my phone as an end user from time to time), but rather whether "stories" as a general concept are still a thing. And I think the answer to that is decidedly yes? I'd leave that up to the folks that know schema.org better to determine the value of being able to represent that semantically within the greater web ecosystem.