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[BUG-235000] [PBR] Performance of a full PBR scene Indoor Lights x Probes x EEP relation #11819

Closed sl-service-account closed 4 months ago

sl-service-account commented 5 months ago

What just happened?

Like every other user that enjoy SL, I'm really looking forward to PBR. Nice project and all.

Forgetting the pros and benefits, it's being a big disappointment, with PBR rendering being an officially released feature, to see the performance of a full PBR scene being that much lower compared to the last generation, and this on a similar scene with way less objects... , also disappointing, is how hard it is to get the damn thing setup with Lights/Probes/EEP, it's almost impossible for an average user (I consider myself one), even following the best bets of one of the main developers of the project (which I'm really grateful to be able to see their input @ discord).

This scene is a indoors store with 4 floors, exactly the same as I have at another region, except, the building was reuploaded (as recommended for mesh tangent calculation, whatever that is) and the new scene is using PBR materials along with a few Blinn-Phong.

With Shadows On and everything the platform can offer (Viewer settings), the only way to light up the damn thing uniformly is by using point lights, projectors and probes... (the building as of now is setup with 53 lights within all floors, where 25 of them are "On" with low intensity...), anyway, here are some bugs and observations:

1) Ambiance setting on reflection probe, helps making the environment brighter and not as dark, but at higher settings, pretty much distorts how the scene looks and appearance of all materials, I'm not even sure why several of the ranges available for probes and EEP are so high.

2) One of the best bets was to add 1 reflection probe per floor, slightly touching each other, I added 4... it did improve appearance and reflections overall, but.... they don't really blend together well (leaving banding over materials), and they change a lot by itself throughout the session, even without moving the camera, they go dark...they go light, sometimes they stay dark, sometimes they stay bright... really slow and weird... (I also attached pictures from another ticket, showing they can easily become broken while tweaking EEP...)

3) Every time a probe/light is added to the scene, performance takes a hit (I get that...), let alone 25 lights and 4 probes, and there is no other way to light up the scene as it was possible without a such a huge performance penalty using the last gen rendering. (maybe use only "transparent glass" buildings? lol)

4) Lights in itself lights are and have always been an issue, they bleed everywhere, go though walls, light projectors can be seen on a back face (behind a wall), on PBR materials ambient occlusion is just missing or gone when using point lights, the scene becomes "blunt", also, no shadows using point lights... I could manually add ambient occlusion or baked shadows to the PBR base color texture... that would do it, but one developer did mention, that's not something you guys would like to see happening... (I am trying to learn/follow the best practices as shared by docs and developers @ discord channel... )

5) With the old rendering engine, using my computer (11700K, 3060, 64gb, 1440p), that same building with all decoration and objects (like 4 times more objects) would result on a very comfortable +-150 fps, not as shiny or realist as PBR is, but very enjoyable for my expectation (16 years playing the game, probably means I did enjoyed SL), now... with way less objects in the same scene using PBR materials... its bright, probably looks more realistic, but overall, the experience is not even close to what it used to be... its a freaking pain in the neck to setup, slow, and doesn't really work as described, not mentioning, that as of now its just impossible to create a scene that will look the same for all not even close matter of fact, sincerely, what the creator intends, seems to not matter anymore, how are you going to attract new "PBR creators", if their main trade cannot be presented as they intend in-world? The optional "See it as I intended you to see (at least for while)" gap now is a grand canyon compared to the "hole" it was before.

6) This PBR x performance x lights x easy to use relation for sure will affect a considerable amount of users using SL with somewhat same goals or use case (buildings, indoors, stores, etc), this really needs to be fixed / improved, cannot be that hard, we are not 3D engineers on a game studio.... after 16 years, my opinion is that, this scenario is unacceptable... way too hard to enjoy, and I doubt very much, you will be able to attract or retain users by making the platform that hard to work with, its not like it was ever easy, but now....

7) Please release make the old viewer version available to be used for a while when we are not in the mood to deal with issues...

One of the developers did mention that anything over 60fps is just noise, its his opinion, I respect and consider that (he is probably right... ), but I have not met one person that played Second Life @ over 100 fps, that would like to go back or near 60 fps again... no matter how shiny and or realistic or modern it would be. (The main role of the game does not change... its not a new game... for some its not a game at all. You are just making it more complicated... even though there is a lot to like in PBR... got to make it easier... )

As a matter of feedback, it's one thing to post photos of one object on a "ugly sandbox" or create a night scene with a few selected PBR materials... or light up one small box with one probe... and say it works. What about some the real day to day of SL users that pay for regions, parcels, create, setup scenes and maybe even sell things?

Attachments

Original Jira Fields | Field | Value | | ------------- | ------------- | | Issue | BUG-235000 | | Summary | [PBR] Performance of a full PBR scene Indoor Lights x Probes x EEP relation | | Type | Bug | | Priority | Unset | | Status | Closed | | Resolution | Duplicate | | Labels | pbr | | Reporter | Andred Darwin (andred.darwin) | | Created at | 2024-01-21T21:37:14Z | | Updated at | 2024-01-26T00:39:15Z | ``` { 'Build Id': 'unset', 'Business Unit': ['Platform'], 'Date of First Response': '2024-01-25T12:36:55.435-0600', "Is there anything you'd like to add?": 'Please fix it', 'ReOpened Count': 0.0, 'Severity': 'Unset', 'System': 'SL Viewer', 'Target Viewer Version': 'viewer-development', 'What just happened?': 'Like every other user that enjoy SL, I\'m really looking forward to PBR. Nice project and all.\r\n\r\nForgetting the pros and benefits, it\'s being a big disappointment, with PBR rendering being an officially released feature, to see the performance of a full PBR scene being that much lower compared to the last generation, and this on a similar scene with way less objects... , also disappointing, is how hard it is to get the damn thing setup with Lights/Probes/EEP, it\'s almost impossible for an average user (I consider myself one), even following the best bets of one of the main developers of the project (which I\'m really grateful to be able to see their input @ discord).\r\n\r\nThis scene is a indoors store with 4 floors, exactly the same as I have at another region, except, the building was reuploaded (as recommended for mesh tangent calculation, whatever that is) and the new scene is using PBR materials along with a few Blinn-Phong.\r\n\r\nWith Shadows On and everything the platform can offer (Viewer settings), the only way to light up the damn thing uniformly is by using point lights, projectors and probes... (the building as of now is setup with 53 lights within all floors, where 25 of them are "On" with low intensity...), anyway, here are some bugs and observations:\r\n\r\n1) Ambiance setting on reflection probe, helps making the environment brighter and not as dark, but at higher settings, pretty much distorts how the scene looks and appearance of all materials, I\'m not even sure why several of the ranges available for probes and EEP are so high.\r\n\r\n2) One of the best bets was to add 1 reflection probe per floor, slightly touching each other, I added 4... it did improve appearance and reflections overall, but.... they don\'t really blend together well (leaving banding over materials), and they change a lot by itself throughout the session, even without moving the camera, they go dark...they go light, sometimes they stay dark, sometimes they stay bright... really slow and weird... (I also attached pictures from another ticket, showing they can easily become broken while tweaking EEP...)\r\n\r\n3) Every time a probe/light is added to the scene, performance takes a hit (I get that...), let alone 25 lights and 4 probes, and there is no other way to light up the scene as it was possible without a such a huge performance penalty using the last gen rendering. (maybe use only "transparent glass" buildings? lol)\r\n\r\n4) Lights in itself are already and have always been an issue, they bleed everywhere, go though walls, light projectors can be seen on a back face (behind a wall), on PBR materials ambient occlusion is just missing or gone when using point lights, the scene becomes "blunt", also, no shadows using point lights... I could manually add ambient occlusion or baked shadows to the PBR base color texture... that would do it, but one developer did mention, that\'s something you guys would not like to see happening... (I am trying to learn/follow the best practices as shared by docs and developers @ discord channel... )\r\n\r\n5) With the old rendering engine, using my computer (11700K, 3060, 64gb, 1440p), that same building with all decoration and objects (like 4 times more objects) would result on a very comfortable +-150 fps, not as shiny or realist as PBR is, but very enjoyable for my expectation (16 years playing the game, probably means I did enjoyed SL), now... with way less objects in the same scene using PBR materials... its bright, probably looks more realistic, but overall, the experience is not even close to what it used to be... its a freaking pain in the neck to setup, slow, and doesn\'t really work as described, not mentioning, that as of now its just impossible to create a scene that will look the same for all not even close matter of fact, sincerely, what the creator intends, seems to not matter anymore, how are you going to attract new "PBR creators", if their main trade cannot be presented as they intend in-world? The optional "See it as I intended you to see (at least for while)" gap now is a grand canyon compared to the "hole" it was before.\r\n\r\n6) This PBR x performance x lights x easy to use relation for sure will affect a considerable amount of users using SL with somewhat same goals or use case (buildings, indoors, stores, etc), this really needs to be fixed / improved, cannot be that hard, we are not 3D engineers on a game studio.... after 16 years, my opinion is that, this scenario is unacceptable... way too hard to enjoy, and I doubt very much, you will be able to attract or retain users by making the platform that hard to work with, its not like it was ever easy, but now.... \r\n\r\n7) Please release make the old viewer version available to be used for a while when we are not in the mood to deal with issues... \r\n\r\nOne of the developers did mention that anything over 60fps is just noise, its his opinion, I respect and consider that (he is probably right... ), but I have not met one person that played Second Life @ over 100 fps, that would like to go back or near 60 fps again... no matter how shiny and or realistic or modern it would be. (The main role of the game does not change... its not a new game... for some its not a game at all. You are just making it more complicated... even though there is a lot to like in PBR... got to make it easier... )\r\n\r\nAs a matter of feedback, it\'s one thing to post photos of one object on a "ugly sandbox" or create a night scene with a few selected PBR materials... or light up one small box with one probe... and say it works.\r\nWhat about some the real day to day of SL users that pay for regions, parcels, create, setup scenes and maybe even sell things?\r\n\r\n- Go do that with a large building, such as the awesome houses available at the marketplace (or even a small 4 floors store). \r\n- Go add several objects with PBR materials to the same house or building to the same level as done before, try to light it up.\r\n- Go do that with a full region.\r\n- Go try to really use probes in scenes such as promoted on the Blog... on shared regions, this will become a nightmare, dozens of probes within view twitching... \r\n- The last old viewer was a Ferrari, compared to the 1957 Ford (hehehe, not that bad) experience this new viewer provides. (I\'m grateful for the Firestorm team to keep the old viewer working... its not as shiny, not as realistic, but very enjoyable experience using the old engine... )\r\n\r\nInterior scenes, probes and lights are just way too hard to setup, specially if you would like to run scenes with shadows enabled and the best the platform can offer, which I used to able to do it very comfortably and actually enjoyed a lot using the last gen rendering, now its a freaking nightmare, I consider myself an average user... the only thing easier is to upload materials... now I have to pay for Substance Painter, have to pay for Premium Plus (need to upload a lot of materials to update all gadgets for everyone, which I intended to do it for free) and my experience is miserable compared to what it used to be. (lol not that bad, but you get my point)...', 'What were you doing when it happened?': 'Create a new scene with PBR materials (Same as the older one, with the intent to provide a before and after on almost identical scene, except, with PBR materials)', 'What were you expecting to happen instead?': '- Performance hit not as drastic for a full scene.\r\n- Better tools to light a scene without such impacts for changing a slider.\r\n- Easy to follow, concise documentation.\r\n- Better testing of tools before releasing as a feature.\r\n- Probes that work, and are not so unstable.', 'Where': 'http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Taber/111/187/3102', } ```
sl-service-account commented 5 months ago

JIRAUSER341268 commented at 2024-01-25T18:36:55Z

This issue is being marked a duplicate of the issue in Canny. 

https://feedback.secondlife.com/bug-reports/p/pbr-performance-of-a-full-pbr-scene-indoor-lights-x-probes-x-eep-relation