[BUG-10145] LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney Functions

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How would you like the feature to work?

Proposal: Make LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney only allowed to be created by active Premium accounts same as experience tools. Accounts should also be older than 30 days for extra security. It’s often that new scam accounts are created daily.

This has nothing to do with using the functions as a user, only the ability to create scripts with these functions

Being a premium member was only a suggestion since experience tools went that route for security purposes (as it seems this option was decided to help with the abusive risks experience tools introduced).

Making it so payment info on file and making accounts be at least 30 days and older have the ability to create these functions would be a step in the right direction

Making a control center like the experience tools so you have a list of current scripts that are deducting money visible. Right now you have no idea what scripts actively are granted

Why is this feature important to you? How would it benefit the community?

LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney are two great functions when used appropriately such sharing payments with collaborators or personal banking accounts. But the down fall is in the recent years they are doing more harm then good. LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney should be treated like Experience tools, only those with Premium accounts with Second Life should be allowed to use them. Daily, weekly, monthly and on going these two functions are being used to scam residents of Second Life. Bot accounts are created on the daily sending out objects “claiming” to give discounts, free money and so forth using these scripting functions. Residents and customers shopping in stores see the object they receive and don’t think twice when granting permission to deduct L$ from their account. In the recent months fraudulent activity is getting worse due to these schemes.

Expected Behavior: Safe environments for residents to shop and explore Second Life without being scammed.

Below are only some of the accounts we have experienced and had to ban due to the abusive nature of this LSL function. (Please edit ticket if this is not allowed, but since all of the accounts are clearly scam accounts I do not see any harm)

gifftboot giftboot2 giftboot3 giftboot5 GiftBoot123 giftboot1236 giftboot1238 giftboot2424 giftboot33333 giftboott GiftBot giftbot01 giftbot02 giftbot03 giftbot04 giftbot05 giftbot06 giftbot07 giftbot08 giftbot09 giftbot33 giftbotevent Giftboty giftdelivery giftevent giftevent01 giftevent02 giftevent03 Giftevents gifttbott giiftbot giiftcard giiftevent

Original Jira Fields

| Field | Value | | ------------- | ------------- | | Issue | BUG-10145 | | Summary | LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney Functions | | Type | New Feature Request | | Priority | Unset | | Status | Closed | | Resolution | Unactionable | | Reporter | TheShops (theshops) | | Created at | 2015-08-28T20:10:41Z | | Updated at | 2017-05-09T00:00:54Z | ``` { 'Business Unit': ['Platform'], 'Date of First Response': '2015-08-28T15:27:51.650-0500', 'How would you like the feature to work?': 'Proposal:\r\nMake LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney only allowed to be used by active Premium accounts same as experience tools. Accounts should also be older than 30 days for extra security. It’s often that new scam accounts are created daily.', 'ReOpened Count': 0.0, 'Severity': 'Unset', 'Target Viewer Version': 'viewer-development', 'Why is this feature important to you? How would it benefit the community?': 'LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney are two great functions when used appropriately such sharing payments with collaborators or personal banking accounts. But the down fall is in the recent years they are doing more harm then good. LlTransferLindenDollars & LlGiveMoney should be treated like Experience tools, only those with Premium accounts with Second Life should be allowed to use them. Daily, weekly, monthly and on going these two functions are being used to scam residents of Second Life. Bot accounts are created on the daily sending out objects “claiming” to give discounts, free money and so forth using these scripting functions. Residents and customers shopping in stores see the object they receive and don’t think twice when granting permission to deduct L$ from their account. In the recent months fraudulent activity is getting worse due to these schemes.\r\n\r\nExpected Behavior:\r\nSafe environments for residents to shop and explore Second Life without being scammed.\r\n\r\nBelow are only some of the accounts we have experienced and had to ban due to the abusive nature of this LSL function. (Please edit ticket if this is not allowed, but since all of the accounts are clearly scam accounts I do not see any harm)\r\n\r\ngifftboot\r\ngiftboot2\r\ngiftboot3\r\ngiftboot5\r\nGiftBoot123\r\ngiftboot1236\r\ngiftboot1238\r\ngiftboot2424\r\ngiftboot33333\r\ngiftboott\r\nGiftBot\r\ngiftbot01\r\ngiftbot02\r\ngiftbot03\r\ngiftbot04\r\ngiftbot05\r\ngiftbot06\r\ngiftbot07\r\ngiftbot08\r\ngiftbot09\r\ngiftbot33\r\ngiftbotevent\r\nGiftboty\r\ngiftdelivery\r\ngiftevent\r\ngiftevent01\r\ngiftevent02\r\ngiftevent03\r\nGiftevents\r\ngifttbott\r\ngiiftbot\r\ngiiftcard\r\ngiiftevent', } ```

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nix.marabana commented at 2015-08-28T20:27:52Z, updated at 2015-08-28T20:31:55Z

Stopping scammers is a noble goal, however I think it's important to point out that pushing this through would also make it impossible for anyone who does not have a premium account to use most scripted vendor systems, rent systems, split scripts for charity events, gacha scripts... etc. While your description is not actually deceptive, the fact that you didn't include that information strikes me as somewhat dishonest. I personally do have a premium account, however I know of many creators who do not. This would exclude them from doing business in many events.

Edited to add: I may be misinterpreting something... It does say that this refers to the creators of the scripts rather than the users of them... which would not exclude people from doing business, but would probably not help, since all it would take is one dishonest script creator to create the scripts for other avatars... Perhaps easier to trace, but ultimately I don't think it would do much good.

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TheShops commented at 2015-08-28T20:33:00Z

Nix - This is so only premium accounts can create scripts using these functions. Anyone can still use the scripts, but its more of a security measure that these scripts are being made from trusted individuals. With premium accounts Linden Lab is able to know exactly who is tied to the account easier.

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Herkimer Highmist commented at 2015-08-28T20:33:18Z

"This should only effect those creating the scripts to use the LSL functions"

Exactly. This will do absoultely zero good with abusive users. Perhaps you should file abuse reports with LL against these users instead of looking to ineffective solutions that only serve to punish the innocent. I have zero interest in signing up for LL's experience perms program - does that make me a criminal then?

Where's the downvote button?

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Trinity Yazimoto commented at 2015-08-28T20:39:13Z

And what will happen to all the vendor systems built by non premium creators ? They will break and this will force honest merchant to buy another. I strongly disagree with this proposition. Some of us have really good valid reason for not joining premium, its just not a tantrum. "Bot accounts are created on the daily sending out objects “claiming” to give discounts, free money" Seriously ! Will this proposition fix anything to the credulity and lazybrainess of ppl ? I doubt it. We should educate ppl instead of making features that in the end will punish the innocents and will leave the guilty free to find a new way to scam ppl.

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TheShops commented at 2015-08-28T20:39:25Z

Herkimer - Do you have any ideas that will help combat giftbot/scam accounts? Abuse reports only do so much on a daily bases.

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TheShops commented at 2015-08-28T20:41:44Z

Trinity - I would think it would work like the new marketplace rules. All new accounts have to have payment info on file and at least 7 days old before making a marketplace.

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Trinity Yazimoto commented at 2015-08-28T20:44:23Z

paiement info file is not same as being forced to be premium ! it doesnt imply the same things im ok for PIOF but i strongly disagree with being forced to be premium.

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Herkimer Highmist commented at 2015-08-28T23:37:29Z, updated at 2015-08-28T23:37:52Z

No, I don't have a solution. Why should I, when it isn't my job to police SL? You are suggesting a technical request to a social solution: the age-old issue of crime (and particularly cons). While this proposal would certainly make the cost of running these scams slightly more expensive, it won't stop them completely - though it will certainly break existing content, grid-wide.

On the wiki page for both of these functions, you will see the following:

Fraud & theft are both LL:Terms Of Service violations and crimes. Misuse this function and you risk being banned and legal action. In addition LL may freeze the accounts of anyone the money is transferred to and restore it to it's rightful owners. This may involve retrieving it from third party exchanges and accounts on those exchanges being frozen. The system is not designed to be friendly towards fraud.

My suggestion to you is this: If you know of individuals being defrauded of money by such scams, I would HIGHLY recommend persuading them to file a report with LL. I'm skeptical they would do nothing about this, but they have to be notified of it first. If I'm wrong about LL dealing with fraud on their system, there are plenty of regulatory agencies (at both the federal level and in the state of California) that can be used to put leverage on LL to do the right thing (or at least the legal thing).

This JIRA is for technical bug reports, not for fraud alerts or open debates. If I recall correctly, it's not even appropriate for feature requests like this. Please, I'd really like to not see every bug report shut down to public access again like it has been in the past because of these sorts of abuses. Additionally, LL would likely respond to fraud faster and more efficiently if they were notified through the appropriate channels, instead of a project/defect tracking application.

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Kilolo Jenkins commented at 2015-08-28T23:47:51Z

This proposition is ridiculous. I have been in SL for 8 yrs and am not a scammer, bot or mischief maker. I have held both premium and non-premium member. Aside from the weekly 300L "stipend" I was receiving (which when you do the math equals the $72USD that one pays for an annual membership at once for a full year's worth membership), I really only saw one other benefit: live support chat.

I keep payment information on file because it's easier for me to buy linden this way, as most residents do. Paying a premium doesn't deter griefers, scammers or anything of the sort. Some are headstrong (and destructive enough) to become a premium member and STILL do everything else. To assume that an action such as this would eliminate the behavior is just as foolish as believing that pigs can truly fly.

Keep payment information on file. Disallow those that don't have payment information on file to own marketplaces. Those measures do work.

And while filing abuse reports doesn't always guarantee results, it's better than simply shutting down hard-working people who've invested years and thousands of real life dollars, premium membership or not, into this environment. Sorry but I vote no.

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TheShops commented at 2015-08-29T01:06:26Z

Herkimer - Scamming is a huge issue thats on going in Second Life. We need better tools to help combat it, this is one of the ideas we thought would help. Even making it so you have to have payment info on file would be beneficial. Making it premium was only a suggestion. This would not break existing content, as stated above this would only effect new script making that certain LSL functions can be accessible if you meet the requirements. Like allowing users to upload meshes you must complete a tutorial, or marketplace you must have piof and be at least 7 days old.

This issue is not happening to just us, but all stores across second life. The bots TP from sim to sim sending objects claiming to give money or discounts. Users wear the object and grant permissions. Stores across the platform put signage in their stores not to accept these objects and warn them of whats going on. We do this in our store when you TP in. This is not enough. Banning new accounts daily and submitting abuse reports is not enough.

Kilolo - Who said anything about shutting people down? Making piof required would be a step in the right direction.

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ArabellaDream commented at 2015-08-29T01:25:07Z, updated at 2015-08-29T01:26:58Z

TheShops - You basically are saying that non premium members should be the only ones allowed to use those certain features. Which would in fact put a hurt on alot of residents that are legitimately abiding by TOS ect. If you are having issues with bots and the like there are several things you can do to safeguard against them that doesn't include reworking the system as we know it. Implement an age limit at your sim and urge customers to make you more aware of scammers approaching them.I vote no to this.

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Bluebane Akula commented at 2015-08-29T03:32:43Z

I also agree that although a noble cause as a non premium member you are basically trying to say I cant sell my creations as an honest user of SL for almost 10 years. I personally know a lot of vendors who also don't have premium and I believe that if it was a requirement then a lot of people would leave SL or stop creating and that in total it would negatively hurt SL a lot. Mabe a more improved system that everyone can use will be better.

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HunniHope commented at 2015-08-29T07:11:25Z

Mebbe one step to take towards this would be an additional account level. A Trader Account. One that not only requires PIOF but also ID verification but not requiring a user to be a premium member. A Trader account could then be granted privileged of certain abilities, for example; the ability to grant debit permissions, or activate any script which allows payment to be made into an object and the ability to make withdrawals. This could combat some way towards the scamming that does go on, but it too opens up other problems, for e.g if a DJ rezzes a tip jar, they too would then have to be a registered trader. Only trader accounts would be able to set-up a mp store too, and if all this personal information is required then perhaps it can also help cut back on copy-botters reselling someone else's creations. It could also provide an extra reassurance knowing that the seller is verified with LL.

SL is one of the few platforms that allows basic members to earn, spend, transfer & withdraw an in-world currency and that is an appealing factor that shouldn't be taken away completely.

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InfinityOwner commented at 2015-08-29T09:25:40Z

No.

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asylum.miggins commented at 2015-08-29T09:49:01Z

I don't agree with this.

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AllysonDwyer commented at 2015-08-29T10:11:07Z

No

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WhatEverAfter commented at 2015-08-29T11:21:43Z

I vote NO

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Lina Pussycat commented at 2015-08-29T13:22:30Z

Yeah this doesn't quite work out. There are many legit non premium accounts that buy L$ on a regular basis. Scammers are going to pop up regardless. Educate people that shop at stores. People cannot be scammed unless they accept and click a dialogue to accept the scam. Do not accept items that are not from the store owner or people officially related to the store (Have a list of official people involved for anything at the store) and a pop up message when teleporting in telling people to not accept anything if it is not from these people at this location. Education goes a LONG way to stopping this. This does not work. I was premium at one point and you are basically suggesting locking a SCRIPT function down that can create massive problems for a whole lot of situations.

There isn't an "easy" solution and payment info on file doesn't even really solve the issue as there are reasons to have a non payment info on file and it ends up messing with alts there too (many vendors require a debit. The scripts to do this already exist and your argument that it is only to create the scripts doesn't work as there is a slew of alts and scripts already floating about so it wouldn't particularly solve anything without locking people down on a mass scale.

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TheShops commented at 2015-08-29T17:00:30Z

Adjusted the information for a more clear outline based on comments.

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Kathrin Dassin commented at 2015-08-29T17:47:19Z

ok lets break this down differently so you can understand a few things.

1. Gift bot scammes have been around SL for as long as SL has been around
2. The responsibility to protect the customers account from hacking from the gift bot scammer is THE CUSTOMERS RESPONSBILITY, not yours.
3. Having Payment Info on File Does NOT mean that the individual is a trusted SL User. Payment info can in fact be faked, stolen or expired.
4. Having payment info on file actually can be considered more dangerous to a person. Imagine what happens if they do not pay attention, get their account hacked, and have payment info on file. Now they're broke cause the hacker spent ALL their RL money on SL and took their SL cash to another account. Now all their hard earned money has been stolen. This goes for your average SL user and your content creators.
5. If you want to make it so only people with payment info can do something relating to YOUR store, set your sim to allow only people with Payment info on file into your sim. That is how you can take an active step in protecting Your customers from the scammers if it is that important to you.

In the end we all deal with scammers every day. Dealing with scammers has to do with knowing how to spot one. How they talk, how they type, do they answer the questions you are asking or do they just post a link for you to go to. When it comes to buying something, does the vendor have the actual name as the owner the person who Owns the shop, or is it a different account all together.. You need to trust your customers to not be idiots. Don't punish the rest of the SL Business community because you are trying to corner the market in something. This request does not sound like someone who is actively trying to protect the customer base. By protecting the customer base you educate them, you inform them, you give them education, not force everyone to conform to your way of thinking. That does nothing to protect or empower the customer. Kat C. Owner Moondance Boutique

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MooN Ishtari commented at 2015-08-29T19:00:36Z

I basically disagree with your output to integrate the rest of us to disengage into becoming premium member in order to rectify your own self company problem. I suggested that you should buck it up by trust your customers and advised and make them knowledgeable of any circumstances thereof. I can't be more than agreeable with the rest about not becoming a premium member.

Majorly more vast of people would surely protest against this. As far as a designer is concerned, years come and go we come to you to help commercialize your brand your product expenditure and IF this ridiculousness continue, put up on the walls of everyone's eyes, you're just tearing down the rest of us when you trying to make other problems seems as your most important thing while your most prioritize matter has been put aside collecting cobwebs.

Owner of Eternity Inc

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TheShops commented at 2015-08-29T19:56:59Z, updated at 2015-08-29T20:05:27Z

Kathrin Dassin -

1. This is all the more reason to implement some type of protection whatever that may be.
2. We can all help make issues more aware instead of brushing things off.
3. This could be true, but at least LL has some info to go by.
4. This is impossible to do unless you know the accounts password. Completely not related to these LSL functions.
5. This has nothing to do with our store. This is about bringing awareness to an issue that is grid wide.

MooN Ishtari - This has nothing to do with us personally, this is a grid wide issue.

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Kathrin Dassin commented at 2015-08-30T07:44:25Z

The Shops -

1. I don't think you realize that because SL is an open world there is no way to protect against scammers. They happen in the real world as well, and there is no way to protect against them in the real world either. Because Scammers can get licenses to sell things, screw people over, close down said business with that license, open up a new one under someone else identity, lather, rinse, repeat.
2. There are all sorts of warning signs that will help a customer spot a scammer. If they are blind enough to not see them, well they get what's coming to them, survival of the fittest.
3. If the information is Not valid then LL has NO information to go by, or the wrong information putting someone who has possibly never played SL in Harms way (goes back to hacked accounts)
4. You obviously have never had to deal with someone who's account has been hacked. EVER. There is such a thing as a little program known as a key-logger, there are links that download things onto your computer, there are things called random password generators. If they can get your User name, they can use one of those items that if you click on a link it will start to throw together numbers, letters and symbols till it figures out your password and boom they're in and at that point they can change your password. And don't tell me that this is again impossible because yes it is, and it is very well easy to code into the LSL functions that your talking about. Also before you tell me that none of this that I have mentioned in point 4 is possible, stop. I used to work Internet Tech support where this type of thing was a VERY COMMON ISSUE that i had to help customers resolve.
5. This obviously does have something to do with your store, Because you are the only person complaining about it instead of handling it like everyone else is. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill and again treating your customers like they are stupid idiots who don't know how to spot a scammer a mile away.

So please before you start talking again, learn exactly what you are dealing with. Hacking an account is Very Very easily done, and no amount of protection you suggest LL put into their system is going to work, it can be worked around. It's up to the Customers, to be vigalent about how and where they are shopping. It is that simple

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jenjen.sommerfleck commented at 2015-08-30T18:27:19Z

This is just wrong! PIOF is fine..just about every legit person has that or has no issue with it. But to pay $70+usd a year in order to create scripts for vendors? Would this really do anything? i.e. Jim is a bigtime scripter, he writes new scripts as a premium member, creates his own version of vendor and sells them to Joe who is a new resident, non-premium and no PIOF. Joe decides to use the vendor he bought to hack Jane, who is a designer trying to sell her goods. Does the fact that Jim is a premium member change anything at all?? Maybe I don't understand how it all works. But couldn't Joe "open" the no mod vendor that he got from Jim and put the script in whatever he wants to use as a scam?? As someone said earlier up the thread, protecting from scams is the consumers responsibility. Just like irl, its MY responsibility to protect myself from phone or internet scams, right? or is it the local grocery stores? Seriously, think about what you are asking. File your ARs on the bots, and if you truly want to do something to help the consumer, offer them educational material on how to avoid scams, implement a notification system when scams happen. Not much more you as a vendor can do, after that it lies completely on the consumers shoulders. No, I'm not a designer. I am a consumer and I know what my own responsibilities are. I've been in sl for 7 years and on the internet for well over 20 years. I have NEVER fell victim to a scam, hack or virus. I went many years without virus protection. Why have I never been a victim? Because I utilize the good common sense I have. We all have it..USE IT! What common sense ideas apply to sl? Don't click links unless you know exactly what they are..just don't do it. Don't accept anything from anyone you didn't ask for. Read everything that asks for perms not only once but twice..be sure you KNOW what it is. When buying something, make sure you are paying the creator of what you are trying to buy! These are tips that LL should give to every new resident when they sign up. Since LL fails in that regard, it falls on our shoulders to offer our fellow residents the info to protect them. Once we provide that info, regardless of whether we are a designer or a consumer, our responsibility ends.

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DexterBlake commented at 2015-08-31T03:28:36Z

1. I request that this entire thing be deleted. As a programmer, I am annoyed that a JIRA Bug report is being used to make this kind of proposal.

2. llTransferLinden Dollars and llGiveMoney already have built in safeguards. While a script can be written by anyone to use these functions on anyone, a click or a wear requires an acceptance by the user and a caution that "this object will deduct money from your balance". At this point, it is purely up to the user to understand what he/she is doing. The only reason spam/grief bots work is simply people that have no clue what they're wearing/clicking on/accepting.

3. If you want to involve yourself in a "cause" related to stopping bots and scammers, feel free to do so. Hold forums, have discussions, and educate people. However, to go as far as suggesting LL enact something that affects the entire community of Second Life, without regard to others opinions lacks common sense. Your proposal forces the entire community to adjust their "financial relationship" to Second Life regardless of their capability of doing so.

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Bibbi commented at 2015-09-01T16:42:48Z

This idea sucks. I find it way to restrictive. Downvote.

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Kyle Linden commented at 2015-09-16T18:57:59Z

Hello TheShops,

Thank you for your suggestion. We've reviewed your request and determined that it is not something we can tackle at this time.

Please be assured that we truly appreciate the time you invested in creating this feature request, and have given it thoughtful consideration among our review team. This wiki outlines some of the reasoning we use to determine which requests we can, or can't, take on: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Feature_Requests

Thanks again for your interest in improving Second Life.