Disable Mid-Turn Forfeiting

[DaWoblefet]

In-game, a player is not allowed to forfeit a match until they have the ability to select the "Run" option during their turn. This includes situations such as these:

• a Pokemon fainting and player forfeiting before sending in their replacement Pokemon
• a Pokemon locked into Outrage / Shadow Force etc. in Singles and player forfeiting before they can select another option
• a Pokemon using U-turn / Volt Switch and player forfeiting before sending in their replacement Pokemon

While forfeiting mid-turn does offer convenience, it is a hindrance in team-locked best-of-three play (such as VGC), where forfeiting early can conceal information, such as what the player's final Pokemon was.

[AustinXII]

If this is implemented it should only effect VGC imo

[SadisticMystic]

What if a player lets themselves run out of time in such situations as a proxy for forfeiting?

[Zarel]

In VGC, running out of time automatically selects your next pokemon/move, so it would be revealed anyway.

[Marty-D]

This only matters if "causing a communication error on purpose" doesn't incur harsh penalties. Obviously in a real VGC tournament you'd get disqualified or worse, but in your average "ladder" match that kind of thing happens all the time. On Battle Spot for example, they don't let you find a new match for some time.

The question is, are there plans to punish those who would "forfeit" early? It will always be possible to simply close your browser and keep that information to yourself anyway.

[Zarel]

It's relatively straightforward to simply let the game go on until the player's next choice, even if the player's left, if we want to do it that way.

[Marty-D]

My point was actually that the games don't do that; communication errors stop the battle in the same way that forfeiting currently does on PS. It's certainly an interesting problem.

[DaWoblefet]

Marty's correct in that PS's implementation currently models that of a traditional disconnect. There are actually very detailed guidelines for VGC judges to follow if disconnects happen, from Section 3.4.5. This would assume that the disconnect is a double DC on both players' side however, which mid-turn forfeiting would not be in this instance. Section 5.4.1 says that a disconnect on the part of the player (e.g. turning the 3DS off) would only suggest to administer a game loss to the player. I'm reasonably confident that trying to pull off something like that in tournament, however, would result in a set loss or disqualification. I'm going to try to get some clarification on that.

I'd be content with Zarel's approach of forcing moves that would occur at timeout (sending in next available Pokemon, forcing first moveslot), but that becomes a little more challenging if the player is unable to select their move that turn, e.g. both Pokemon are in the state of Outrage / are picking up the opponents with Sky Drop, and another action is required from the other player before the battle can progress. Marty brings another good point that this also is a complication to the average ladder match. Perhaps this issue should be shelved until a teamlocked best-of-three system is implemented?

[Zarel]

I can probably just implement cartridge-relevant selection mechanics in VGC...

[Zarel]

@DaWoblefet Did you end up getting clarification on that?

[DaWoblefet]

Yes, I did back in December, but it looks like I never followed up here (oops). I'll quote from the judge I asked:

Me: So Section 5.4.1 says the penalty for a one-sided DC, like turning off the 3DS or popping out the cart, would justify a game loss. Can a player arbitrarily abuse this? Suppose I am in a losing situation and don't want to reveal my fourth mon, but I can't click Run because I have to switch in the mon. If I intentionally turn off my 3DS to conserve information, how would you rule in a situation like that? Similarly, if I intentionally turn off my 3DS after losing, say, game one because I want to stall for round time.

Their response: A few important points to keep in mind: -The recommended penalty is game loss -Penalties can be escalated or adjusted if a judge deems it appropriate -Any penalty that is superior to a a Caution is reported to TPCi. This means that in an official tournament you don't just lose the game you obviously can't play anymore, the penalty is reported to TPCi which is now directly aware of it and if it sees a constant pattern could decide to take further action -Set Loss does not exist as a penalty. The only penalty above Game Loss is Disqualification. As a judge I would almost never go further than the Game Loss, simply because it's usually just a result of people being salty or not wanting to watch finishing animations. This usually happens in the last game. If someone were to turn off their DS multiple times after a game that isn't the last one in the set that's where I might consider Disqualification, but only after telling them that what they're doing could result in that penalty if repeated multiple times, and I think that most judges would actually never go that way.

[Zarel]

Hm.

I feel like in the absence of an official ruling otherwise, it's fine to count a mid-turn forfeit as a game loss. We do want to simulate that part accurately.

[Zarel]

Now, I assume something else happens on the ladder, though?

[Zarel]

GBU or Battle Spot or whatever they're calling it nowadays?

[DaWoblefet]

Yes, DCing on Battle Spot counts as a game loss. I know that multiple DCs can also get you disqualified from Global Link competitions, at least ones that are applicable to the Japanese Nationals qualification system (the International Challenges). Again, just to emphasize the point of this proposal, disabling mid-turn forfeits only really matter for team-locked best-of-three play, where you could potentially gain information in situations where you normally aren't going to be able to forfeit. Without support for best-of-three, I'm fine with this issue being shelved until then.

[Zarel]

I still can't close this, this is definitely something I'm going to need to deal with sooner or later. Best-of-three is nearly done: https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/pull/4076

It's just waiting on the Preact rewrite, which is also nearly done.