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i18n de - German tutorial translation - proofreading chp. 7-11 #391

Closed mbutz closed 9 years ago

mbutz commented 9 years ago

Hi Sam, hi to the other translaters,

I proof-read chapter 7 - 11. Of course I can not proof-read my own translation (1-6)

As we did not agree upon a specific procedure (see: https://github.com/samaaron/sonic-pi/issues/343#issuecomment-78045930 onwards) I noted some necessary/possible changes in the text; example:

Eine Möglichkeit ist es, alle Noten in einer Liste zu spielen: `[52, 55, 59]`. 
Unsere freundliche Funktione [Funktion][@mbutz] `play` ist schlau 
genug[,][@mbutz] um zu wissen, wie man eine Liste von Noten abspielt. 
Versuche es einmal:

Please let me know whether there is a better way how we should carry on. The corrections/propositions for changes I pushed to my repository: https://github.com/mbutz/sonic-pi/.

@samaaron: Do you want me to issue a pull request? (Don't know whether this is a good idea because now the tutorial is in an interim state; @wwerner and @st01c have to accept or dicard my changes and remove my notes).

I also have some general remarks and/or more extended comments which I am posting here; also here, let me know if there is a better way to communicate about this:

Proof-Reading of Tutorial Chapter 7-11 by @mbutz

06-FX.md

General remarks:

General remarks:

Again the question pops up: What to translate and what to leave in English; here e.g.: "run-local" and "run"

My general rule of thumb: Not to translate any terms which also appear in the code such as "synth" and some more. Furthermore: expressions which do not have an equivalent in German, such as "live coding". In all other cases, i.e. if there is a decent translation (decent = meaning: it is a common term used in colloquial German or comparable German technical documentations, such as envelope = Hüllkurve), I vote for a translation. My argument for this rule: we do not want to teach English but make the program usable for those, who do not read English fluently. (If people want to know the English term the better it is, but this has no priority for me; on the other hand it is crucial, that users do not get confused, if they find a term which is frequently used within the code but translated into German; that's the threshold for me where they will have to understand and use the English term).

time: often I'd rather prefer to translate this as Zeitdauer or Dauer rather than Zeit, because that's what's actually meant.

A Kreis von Zeiten ist not really a clear description of circle of times; I do not have a simple translation at hand, but I think is is rather something like zirkulär verwendete (Zeit)Dauern (which is clumsy but more precise and does not bear the danger of sounding metaphorical).

08.3-Scales.md

Lang-Knopf: 1. will this be called lang in the translated GUI (this questions also applied to the tutorial navigation in general e.g. chord and scale)? 2. I chose Button because I feel that Knopf sounds akward. Otherwise my own proposition is to use german expressions if available. What should we do?

08.4-Rings.md

08-Data-Structures.md

09.1-Live-Coding-Fundamentals.md

named thread: I don't think there is such a word like benamt in German; I'd rather say benannt (you could say namentlich which might even be more precise but sounds a bit akward in my ears)

Wir haben keine neue Ebene bekommen, da wir einen benannten Thread verwendet haben, was nur einen Thread pro Name zulässt.: The last subordinate clause sounds a bit clumsy in my ears. I propose to rephrase ; jedem Namen kann nur ein Thread zugeordnet werden. That's the other way round but because we have a one-to-one correspondence of thread and name it seems to be okay.

09.2-Live-Loops.md

Live Loop: Should we go for Live-Loop (see also next chapter and chapter 06.1-Adding-FX.md about using the hyphen)

09.3-Multiple-Live-Loops.md

09-Live-Coding.md

Sometimes seemingly simple english phrases become quite long and conplicated in German: Einer der interessantesten Aspekte von Sonic Pi ist, das [dass][@mbutz] es dir die Möglichkeit gibt, Code live zu schreiben und zu verändern um Musik zu machen, so als würdest Du beispielsweise mit einer Gitarre auftreten. I would rephrase somehow like that to make it more simple and : Einer der interessantesten Aspekte von Sonic Pi ist es, das es dir die Möglichkeit gibt, Code live zu schreiben; beim Spielen veränderst du deine Musik so, als würdest Du beispielsweise mit einer Gitarre auftreten.

10.1-Using-Shortcuts.md

Proposition: German names resp. naotations printed the keys for keys

Control = Strg/Ctrl (Mac) Meta = Alt/Cmd (Mac) Shift = Umschalttaste

10.2-Shortcut-Cheatsheet.md

10.3-Sharing.md

[GitHub](https://github.com) ist eine Seite um Code zu teilen und damit zu arbeiten. GitHub wird von professionellen Entwicklern und auch Künstlern verwendet, um Code zu teilen und zusammenzuarbeiten.: One of these sentences is redundant. I would skip the first one, keep the second and link GitHub.

10.4-Performing.md

10-Essential-Knowledge.md

11-Conclusions.md

Hoffentlich hast Du etwas dabei gelernt. In German - at least for me - one could easily read this in a moralistic way. My proposition: Hoffentlich hat es dir etwas gebracht or Hoffentlich konntest du dabei etwas lernen.

wwerner commented 9 years ago

Wow, thanks for the effort!

I haven't had time to read through all your corrections yet, but for my part I'd say go ahead and push the changes. Feel free to change the stuff I translated however you like.

I'll work through the tutorial (with the kids) and see if I still find anything, but I don't know when we can make it.

IMHO, the current state is fine for a first version of the German tutorial. But that's up to the guys deeper involved than I am.

Thanks again, great to see it coming together. Am 20.03.2015 21:11 schrieb "G. Martin Butz" notifications@github.com:

Hi Sam, hi to the other translaters,

I proof-read chapter 7 - 11. Of course I can not proof-read my own translation (1-6)

As we did not agree upon a specific procedure (see: #343 (comment) https://github.com/samaaron/sonic-pi/issues/343#issuecomment-78045930 onwards) I noted some necessary/possible changes in the text; example:

Eine Möglichkeit ist es, alle Noten in einer Liste zu spielen: [52, 55, 59]. Unsere freundliche Funktione [Funktion][@mbutz] play ist schlau genug[,][@mbutz] um zu wissen, wie man eine Liste von Noten abspielt. Versuche es einmal:

Please let me know whether there is a better way how we should carry on. The corrections/propositions for changes I pushed to my repository: https://github.com/mbutz/sonic-pi/.

@samaaron https://github.com/samaaron: Do you want me to issue a pull request? (Don't know whether this is a good idea because now the tutorial is in an interim state; @wwerner https://github.com/wwerner and @st01c https://github.com/st01c have to accept or dicard my changes).

I also have some general remarks and/or more extended comments which I am posting here; also here, let me know if there is a better way to communicate about this: Proof-Reading of Tutorial Chapter 7-11 by @mutz https://github.com/mutz 06-FX.md

General remarks:

  • English expressions in parenthesis, e.g. "möchtest du deine Bassmelodien verzerren ('distortion') oder schwabbeln lassen ('wobble')."
  • English: "This is called FX chaining." German: "Man nennt diese Vorgehensweise 'Effektverkettung.'" We need a general guideline whether to stress new expressions or not (like in the english text)
  • "Du, Dein" etc. or "du, dein"? IMHO the capitalized versions do look oldfashioned and is not necessary according to Duden. Actually the "Du", as I understand it, is meant for personal conversations like in letters. Here it is a generic "du" which adresses all readers of the tutorial.

06.2-FX-in-Practice.md

General remarks:

Again the question pops up: What to translate and what to leave in English; here e.g.: "run-local" and "run"

My general rule of thumb: Not to translate any terms which also appear in the code such as "synth" and some more. Furthermore: expressions which do not have an equivalent in German, such as "live coding". In all other cases, i.e. if there is a decent translation (decent = meaning: it is a common term used in colloquial German or comparable German technical documentations, such as envelope = Hüllkurve), I vote for a translation. My argument for this rule: we do not want to teach English but make the program usable for those, who do not read English fluently. (If people want to know the English term the better it is, but this has no priority for me; on the other hand it is crucial, that users do not get confused, if they find a term which is frequently used within the code but translated into German; that's the threshold for me where they will have to understand and use the English term).

  • "Synthie" or "Synth" (I would argue: it is used in the code so no translation)

06.1-Adding-FX.md

  • "nutzen wir die "goalpost"-Parameter (deut. Torpfosten)"; I propose to be less true to the original text but more clear concerning the actual meaning: "senkrechte Striche", see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkrechter_Strich
  • I propose to apply the German language rule to bind terms which belong together with a hyphen, e.g. not "do/end Block" but "do/end-Block"

07.1-Controlling-Running-Synths.md 07.2-Controlling-FX.md 07.3-Sliding-Parameters.md 07-Control.md

  • "Sounds" or "Klänge"?
  • Who is speaking? See: "Glück gehabt - in diesem Kapitel werden wir Dir genau das zeigen." I used to translate either "I ..." if Aaron speaks of himselft or "it (the chapter) shows ..."; we should be univocal throughout the tutorial.

08.1-Lists.md

  • Log [Protokoll]; occurs also elsewhere. See: app/gui/qt/lang/sonic-pi_de.ts

08.2-Chords.md

time: often I'd rather prefer to translate this as Zeitdauer or Dauer rather than Zeit, because that's what's actually meant.

A Kreis von Zeiten ist not really a clear description of circle of times; I do not have a simple translation at hand, but I think is is rather something like zirkulär verwendete (Zeit)Dauern (which is clumsy but more precise and does not bear the danger of sounding metaphorical). 08.3-Scales.md

Lang-Knopf: 1. will this be called lang in the translated GUI (this questions also applied to the tutorial navigation in general e.g. chord and scale)? 2. I chose Button because I feel that Knopf sounds akward. Otherwise my own proposition is to use german expressions if available. What should we do? 08.4-Rings.md 08-Data-Structures.md 09.1-Live-Coding-Fundamentals.md

named thread: I don't think there is such a word like benamt in German; I'd rather say benannt (you could say namentlich which might even be more precise but sounds a bit akward in my ears)

Wir haben keine neue Ebene bekommen, da wir einen benannten Thread verwendet haben, was nur einen Thread pro Name zulässt.: The last subordinate clause sounds a bit clumsy in my ears. I propose to rephrase ; jedem Namen kann nur ein Thread zugeordnet werden. That's the other way round but because we have a one-to-one correspondence of thread and name it seems to be okay. 09.2-Live-Loops.md

Live Loop: Should we go for Live-Loop (see also next chapter and chapter 06.1-Adding-FX.md about using the hyphen) 09.3-Multiple-Live-Loops.md 09-Live-Coding.md

Sometimes seemingly simple english phrases become quite long and conplicated in German: Einer der interessantesten Aspekte von Sonic Pi ist, das [dass][@mbutz] es dir die Möglichkeit gibt, Code live zu schreiben und zu verändern um Musik zu machen, so als würdest Du beispielsweise mit einer Gitarre auftreten. I would rephrase somehow like that to make it more simple and : Einer der interessantesten Aspekte von Sonic Pi ist es, das es dir die Möglichkeit gibt, Code live zu schreiben; beim Spielen veränderst du deine Musik so, als würdest Du beispielsweise mit einer Gitarre auftreten. 10.1-Using-Shortcuts.md

Proposition: German names resp. naotations printed the keys for keys

Control = Strg/Ctrl (Mac) Meta = Alt/Cmd (Mac) Shift = Umschalttaste 10.2-Shortcut-Cheatsheet.md 10.3-Sharing.md

GitHub ist eine Seite um Code zu teilen und damit zu arbeiten. GitHub wird von professionellen Entwicklern und auch Künstlern verwendet, um Code zu teilen und zusammenzuarbeiten.: One of these sentences is redundant. I would skip the first one, keep the second and link GitHub. 10.4-Performing.md 10-Essential-Knowledge.md 11-Conclusions.md

Hoffentlich hast Du etwas dabei gelernt. In German - at least for me - one could easily read this in a moralistic way. My proposition: Hoffentlich hat es dir etwas gebracht or Hoffentlich konntest du dabei etwas lernen.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/samaaron/sonic-pi/issues/391.

samaaron commented 9 years ago

Hi all,

it's wonderful to see such care and effort being made!

I'm of the opinion that we're all here to make things better, so I'm very happy to accept pull requests and we'll continue to iterate and fold in improvements to all languages (including EN) as we go forward.

Thanks once again!

mbutz commented 9 years ago

Ok then. I will make the changes I proposed and sent @samaaron a pull request. You can always track the changes I did via git.

@samaaron: I am willing to start translating the manual as well. It'll probably take more time than the tutorial. What do you think?

samaaron commented 9 years ago

I should mention that I've just added a couple of new files detailing the new Minecraft API. I'm happy to have these not translated for v2.5 and then during the v2.6-dev cycle we can look to translate them. It makes sense that the translations lag a little behind the English versions.

hzulla commented 9 years ago

Oh darn, I began proofreading from chapter 1 and already began sending pull requests before reading this.

Anyways, as an old-fashioned guy, I prefer the "Du" over "du", but if you guys decide that you don't like it, I'll revert those changes.

hzulla commented 9 years ago

@mbutz - I'd like to note that I like your writing style and had very little to change in my proofreading effort so far. The suggestions you make in this issue here do make sense to me.

hzulla commented 9 years ago

@mbutz: I think it's not realistic to translate the manual.

GUI and tutorial are a great resource and it is enough work to keep those in sync with the English version. The manual as a reference should be ok in English.

The manual is written as comments in the ruby code and that changes too fast for translators to follow the changes. Playing catch-up will be frustrating for translators (as well as coders who want to get their changes out of the door).

mbutz commented 9 years ago

@hzulla - I still have some uncomitted changes in the chapters I proof-read. Will send a pull request the next days. Are you going to proof-read all of it? Could you wait with it until I pushed my changes to see what I already proposed as corrections? Concerning the du/dein/euer etc.: Someone has to decide. I am going for lower case but are willing to go with the majority.

samaaron commented 9 years ago

With respect to Du/du I'd personally prefer the more informal version - as this is the approach I've taken with the English version. I want the tutorial to be fun and friendly.

hzulla commented 9 years ago

Both Du and du are informal. There used to be a rule that one should write it with a capital D, but that's now a thing of the past.

samaaron commented 9 years ago

If they're both similarly informal, I'm happy with either :-) Obviously, the most important thing now is consistency.

hzulla commented 9 years ago

Ok, chapters 1-6 by @mbutz use "du", chapters 7-11 by @wwerner use "Du".

German language reference Duden says: "In allen Textformen, in denen der Autor selbst den Leser persönlich anredet, kann man du/Du und die genannten Wörter großschreiben. [..] In all diesen Fällen empfehlen wir übrigens die Großschreibung." - when the author talks directly to the reader, they recommend using "Du", but it's still the author's choice and "du" isn't wrong.

I vote for capital D, but @mbutz, are you ok with using capital D?

samaaron commented 9 years ago

I'm happy with either - it would just be great to get this translation work into v2.5 which I hope to release any day now....

mbutz commented 9 years ago

I'll make an update of my local files until tomorrow, change my "du's" to "Du's" and will send a pull request until tomorrow evening. We need not to delay things an account of such a minor issue. I'm happy with both forms...

hzulla commented 9 years ago

I'm already proofreading your chapters and changed those. @samaaron has already merged chapters 1-3.

hzulla commented 9 years ago

@mbutz: I have finished reading your chapters 1-6, thanks for your excellent translation.

@samaaron: I won't be able to start from chapter 7 before Monday, sorry.

@mbutz and @wwerner: My proofreading effort is mostly to find typos, of which there were few (but as usual, I'll probably miss a lot... ;-) ). Aligning the style of your two translations will be worthwhile, but that's a later thing to do.

All in all I'm for doing quick pull requests for proofreading changes, so that you don't brood too much about your own changes while the git tree moves on...

mbutz commented 9 years ago

I have a bit of a problem. This might be a very basic git related question, sorry for that, but it keeps me from requesting a push request with my last changes. What I did:

Can anyone point me to the right direction?

@hzulla: Thanks for the flowers and for doing the proof-reading.

nicoder commented 9 years ago

Hi @mbutz,

I don't know about emacs or magit, but after accepting the changes and adding your improvements, did you git add the files? You should then be able to git commit.

https://help.github.com/articles/resolving-merge-conflicts/ https://help.github.com/articles/resolving-a-merge-conflict-from-the-command-line/

mbutz commented 9 years ago

@nicoder - Thanks for your answer. I resolved the problem. Actually I do not know, what happened yesterday, only: I could not stage my changes (= resolved conflicts). Today I could. Sleeping a night over it obviously helped me and git;)

@samaaron - You will get a pull request now.

mbutz commented 9 years ago

@hzulla - If @samaaron accepts the pull request you will get some changes I did as a result of my proof-reading. I do hope I did not mess up any of your changes while resolving my conflicts. Especially I did take care about the line breaks where I rephased things. I understood that lines should not have more than 72 characters. Is that right? Please give me an idea, why this is necessary. I thought the help window of Sonic Pi would take care of and make automatic line breaks. Nevertheless I will make proper line breaks in the future.

samaaron commented 9 years ago

73 chars width isn't a rule. I just did it in the original to keep things neat. It shouldn't have any impact in the final rendered app version :)

hzulla commented 9 years ago

I think this issue can be closed.

hopbit commented 9 years ago

@mbutz @hzulla Quick question:

"I am willing to start translating the manual as well."

Please, could You tell me where can I find mentioned manual?

hopbit commented 9 years ago

PS shouldn't this issue be closed?

mbutz commented 9 years ago

@hopbit, well, as far as I know, there is no manual but there is a general guideline by @samaaron you've probably seen already.

And yes, you are right. I'll close it.

hopbit commented 9 years ago

Thx :)