How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users?

[hzulla]

We're looking for users who are visually impaired / blind. Please comment and discuss here.

Please let the developers of Sonic Pi know how you're using your computer (hardware and software tools, e.g. screen readers) and how Sonic Pi works on your setup. What works, what doesn't work well?

Can you tell us about other open source software that works well for you and where the developers can learn a few tricks to improve Sonic Pi's accessibility?

Thanks & welcome!

[ethancrawford]

You guys do take pull requests right? @krperry - for sure! All the best with that, hopefully you don't have any issues, let us know otherwise.

[krperry]

I just added the first of my pull requests. It just focus the edit screen by default. I also ahve something I want to do with the splash screen but I might want to talk to somone about hwat is beign shown on the splash screen first. I have openscad and sonic-pi building now. I will try to use some of the stuff from openscad to get the editor working better. I am trying to figure out why the code completion works with narrator but not Jaws and NVDA. It might have something to do with how focus is moved as people select things. With narrarator this is pretty accessible if you use all the short cut keys to focus stuff. It might be good though if it is made possible to control out of multi line edit controls and tab out of other controls on the main screen. That is what GUI applications should do. You should be able to get to everything without having to use a mouse. It seems you can using the short cut keys but tab controls should be added.

[krperry]

One other thing to mention. If your using Jaws or NVDA blind you can use the editor pretty good if you turn off completion till it is fixed for the access software. It means you have to read the documents more but what is new for blind users. I hope I can get this fixed though as a blind user myself now that I have it compiling. If anyone has a test branch where they are messing with access let me know and I will build and play with it.

[samaaron]

Closing this for now as we have had positive reports of using screen readers on both Windows and macOS within the latest builds of the GUI. We also now have a high contrast visual mode, accessible context pane with line/pos number (requested by accessibility experts from the Netherlands), focus shortcuts and an accessible menu bar which provides an alternative accessible interface to all of the functionality in the preferences pane (which isn't particularly accessible to screen readers).

We are always keen to improve the accessibility of Sonic Pi, so please do open up a new issue with specific accessibility requests/advice.

[yonghuming]

您好，邮件已经收到

[krperry]

Thanks will do some testing.

From: Sam Aaron @.> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 9:12 AM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Closing this for now as we have had positive reports of using screen readers on both Windows and macOS within the latest builds of the GUI. We also now have a high contrast visual mode, accessible context pane with line/pos number (requested by accessibility experts from the Netherlands), focus shortcuts and an accessible menu bar which provides an alternative accessible interface to all of the functionality in the preferences pane (which isn't particularly accessible to screen readers).

We are always keen to improve the accessibility of Sonic Pi, so please do open up a new issue with specific accessibility requests/advice.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi/issues/962#issuecomment-1189035643 , or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AB5J6YKOBDL5PLNZ7HRDXMTVU2SQLANCNFSM4B2UTC3Q . You are receiving this because you were mentioned. https://github.com/notifications/beacon/AB5J6YKYR3HTJUTPPCKEDFTVU2SQLA5CNFSM4B2UTC32YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOI3PT46Y.gif Message ID: @. @.> >

[samaaron]

@krperry - that would be great and I look forward to hearing your feedback :-)

[ogomez92]

On the macOS side auto complete still does not work with the arrow keys (you can't see all the options with voiceover enabled and you have to use voiceover navigation functions to navigate the autocomplete list and that only shows you the first options without scrolling). Then, if you press delete, it crashes (only on macOS).

Now, both windows and macOS. select al doesn't work (command a or ctrl a). Also, control home and control end keys don't work to move to top or bottom of the code window, also control shift home and end to select to top or bottom.

Thats all I could find for now.

On 7/19/22, Sam Aaron @.***> wrote:

@krperry - that would be great and I look forward to hearing your feedback :-)

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[mjcheverie]

Thank you! I'll be trying it out with my blind students when we start school next month.

Mike Cheverie

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022, 6:45 AM Sam Aaron @.***> wrote:

@krperry https://github.com/krperry - that would be great and I look forward to hearing your feedback :-)

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[alpha2013]

linux exist to.

Le mar. 19 juil. 2022 à 09:11, Sam Aaron @.***> a écrit :

Closing this for now as we have had positive reports of using screen readers on both Windows and macOS within the latest builds of the GUI. We also now have a high contrast visual mode, accessible context pane with line/pos number (requested by accessibility experts from the Netherlands), focus shortcuts and an accessible menu bar which provides an alternative accessible interface to all of the functionality in the preferences pane (which isn't particularly accessible to screen readers).

We are always keen to improve the accessibility of Sonic Pi, so please do open up a new issue with specific accessibility requests/advice.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi/issues/962#issuecomment-1189035643, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABAQET2ZJSDQ7O47HWR36LDVU2SQLANCNFSM4B2UTC3Q . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[alpha2013]

Linux I'm a linux user and I want accessibility too.

Le mar. 19 juil. 2022 à 09:11, Sam Aaron @.***> a écrit :

Closing this for now as we have had positive reports of using screen readers on both Windows and macOS within the latest builds of the GUI. We also now have a high contrast visual mode, accessible context pane with line/pos number (requested by accessibility experts from the Netherlands), focus shortcuts and an accessible menu bar which provides an alternative accessible interface to all of the functionality in the preferences pane (which isn't particularly accessible to screen readers).

We are always keen to improve the accessibility of Sonic Pi, so please do open up a new issue with specific accessibility requests/advice.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi/issues/962#issuecomment-1189035643, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABAQET2ZJSDQ7O47HWR36LDVU2SQLANCNFSM4B2UTC3Q . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[samaaron]

On the macOS side auto complete still does not work with the arrow keys (you can't see all the options with voiceover enabled and you have to use voiceover navigation functions to navigate the autocomplete list and that only shows you the first options without scrolling). Then, if you press delete, it crashes (only on macOS).

That's odd, because, at least visually, autocomplete works on both macOS and Windows with the up and down arrow keys. When the autocomplete initially pops up, the top entry is highlighted and will be the entry that's selected if you hit return or tab. If you hit down, the top item is unhighlight and the item below is then highlighted. It seems that the screen reader isn't getting this selection information somehow. Unfortunately this is an external autocompletion system which is part of QScintilla and this may or may not be fixed in the future - it's out of our control (unless someone is kind enough to contribute a fix).

My advice at this point is to disable the autocompletion which you can do with menu - code - show code completion.

[krperry]

This should probably be reported to QT if it is a widget problem. Of course they will probably want a more simple example.

From: Sam Aaron @.> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 10:06 AM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

On the macOS side auto complete still does not work with the arrow keys (you can't see all the options with voiceover enabled and you have to use voiceover navigation functions to navigate the autocomplete list and that only shows you the first options without scrolling). Then, if you press delete, it crashes (only on macOS).

That's odd, because, at least visually, autocomplete works on both macOS and Windows with the up and down arrow keys. When the autocomplete initially pops up, the top entry is highlighted and will be the entry that's selected if you hit return or tab. If you hit down, the top item is unhighlight and the item below is then highlighted. It seems that the screen reader isn't getting this selection information somehow. Unfortunately this is an external autocompletion system which is part of QScintilla and this may or may not be fixed in the future - it's out of our control (unless someone is kind enough to contribute a fix).

My advice at this point is to disable the autocompletion which you can do with menu - code - show code completion.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi/issues/962#issuecomment-1190332302 , or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AB5J6YNBYH53RC2K46IR6C3VVABWLANCNFSM4B2UTC3Q . You are receiving this because you were mentioned. https://github.com/notifications/beacon/AB5J6YJK4KADIJK46J435ZLVVABWLA5CNFSM4B2UTC32YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOI3ZQPDQ.gif Message ID: @. @.> >

[krperry]

I agree with this. With that said I think it should have some access if you have your accessibility setup correctly. QT should be accessible in linux.

From: alpha2013 @.> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 10:04 AM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Linux I'm a linux user and I want accessibility too.

Le mar. 19 juil. 2022 à 09:11, Sam Aaron @. <mailto:@.> > a écrit :

Closing this for now as we have had positive reports of using screen readers on both Windows and macOS within the latest builds of the GUI. We also now have a high contrast visual mode, accessible context pane with line/pos number (requested by accessibility experts from the Netherlands), focus shortcuts and an accessible menu bar which provides an alternative accessible interface to all of the functionality in the preferences pane (which isn't particularly accessible to screen readers).

We are always keen to improve the accessibility of Sonic Pi, so please do open up a new issue with specific accessibility requests/advice.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi/issues/962#issuecomment-1189035643, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABAQET2ZJSDQ7O47HWR36LDVU2SQLANCNFSM4B2UTC3Q . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @. <mailto:@.> >

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[ogomez92]

Disable autocomplete? If you disable autocomplete, how do you get suggestions?

On 7/20/22, krperry @.***> wrote:

I agree with this. With that said I think it should have some access if you have your accessibility setup correctly. QT should be accessible in linux.

From: alpha2013 @.***>

Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 10:04 AM

To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.***>

Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.>

Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Linux I'm a linux user and I want accessibility too.

Le mar. 19 juil. 2022 à 09:11, Sam Aaron @. <mailto:@.> > a

écrit :

Closing this for now as we have had positive reports of using screen

readers on both Windows and macOS within the latest builds of the GUI. We

also now have a high contrast visual mode, accessible context pane with

line/pos number (requested by accessibility experts from the Netherlands),

focus shortcuts and an accessible menu bar which provides an alternative

accessible interface to all of the functionality in the preferences pane

(which isn't particularly accessible to screen readers).

We are always keen to improve the accessibility of Sonic Pi, so please

do open up a new issue with specific accessibility requests/advice.

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Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub

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.

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[samaaron]

Disable autocomplete? If you disable autocomplete, how do you get suggestions?

Unfortunately you wouldn’t be able to.

However, given that the auto completion system as it currently stands is:

1. Not accessible via screen readers
2. Interferes with code editing when not accessible

It seems that disabling auto completion to remove it interfering is the best option for now - at least until it becomes accessible. However, as mentioned previously, this is unfortunately a problem with an external GUI component and not something we can fix directly.

[krperry]

This is not true. I know for a fact autocomplete works fine with Narriaator. I Currently Jaws and NVDA it does not work in but as soon as someone writes a script it could. Try using it with narrator though it is the best accessibility experience so far.

From: Sam Aaron @.> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:30 PM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Disable autocomplete? If you disable autocomplete, how do you get suggestions?

Unfortunately you wouldn’t be able to.

However, given that the auto completion system as it currently stands is:

1. Not accessible via screen readers
2. Interferes with code editing when not accessible

It seems that disabling auto completion to remove it interfering is the best option for now - at least until it becomes accessible. However, as mentioned previously, this is unfortunately a problem with an external GUI component and not something we can fix directly.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi/issues/962#issuecomment-1190498146 , or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AB5J6YMA4K4S2UUDURJ2U7LVVASPDANCNFSM4B2UTC3Q . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[samaaron]

This is not true. I know for a fact autocomplete works fine with Narriaator. I Currently Jaws and NVDA it does not work in but as soon as someone writes a script it could. Try using it with narrator though it is the best accessibility experience so far.

OK, well that's great - all I can say is that I tried it with VoiceOver on macOS and it didn't work as expected.

What kind of script is necessary and how would that work?

[samaaron]

Just to confirm, the autocomplete can be read via Narrator and navigated via the keyboard on Windows 11.

[krperry]

           Have not tried windows 11 I use windows 10 till I get my new laptop.

From: Sam Aaron @.> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:54 PM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Just to confirm, the autocomplete can be read via Narrator and navigated via the keyboard on Windows 11.

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[ogomez92]

I was talking about macOS the whole timke, like I said before, on Windows it works fine. sorry if there was any confusion.

On 7/20/22, krperry @.***> wrote:

           Have not tried windows 11 I use windows 10 till I get my new

laptop.

From: Sam Aaron @.***>

Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:54 PM

To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.***>

Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.>

Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Just to confirm, the autocomplete can be read via Narrator and navigated via the keyboard on Windows 11.

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[krperry]

I understand my point was when he said to disable it that is not true that auto completion does not work in other cases. Mac should work and if we have to report to QT that they have a problem in accessibility we probably should. We need to write a small test app that imitates the intel sense and if it doesn’t work send it to QT as a bug report. That is the fastest way to get this kind of thing fixed.

From: ogomez92 @.> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 11:41 PM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

I was talking about macOS the whole timke, like I said before, on Windows it works fine. sorry if there was any confusion.

On 7/20/22, krperry @. <mailto:@.> > wrote:

Have not tried windows 11 I use windows 10 till I get my new laptop.

From: Sam Aaron @. <mailto:@.> >

Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:54 PM

To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @. <mailto:@.> >

Cc: krperry @. <mailto:@.> >; Mention @. <mailto:@.> >

Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Just to confirm, the autocomplete can be read via Narrator and navigated via the keyboard on Windows 11.

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[alpha2013]

Hi!

    I think about people using a computer with poor resources, and in linux mode it can be possible to install a linux in console mode only.  Is this possible to use the sonic-pi audio server in daemon mode and interact with emacs?

Le 2022-07-21 à 06 h 51, krperry a écrit :

I understand my point was when he said to disable it that is not true that auto completion does not work in other cases. Mac should work and if we have to report to QT that they have a problem in accessibility we probably should. We need to write a small test app that imitates the intel sense and if it doesn’t work send it to QT as a bug report. That is the fastest way to get this kind of thing fixed.

From: ogomez92 @.> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 11:41 PM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

I was talking about macOS the whole timke, like I said before, on Windows it works fine. sorry if there was any confusion.

On 7/20/22, krperry @. <mailto:@.> > wrote:

Have not tried windows 11 I use windows 10 till I get my new laptop.

From: Sam Aaron @. <mailto:@.> >

Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:54 PM

To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @. <mailto:@.> >

Cc: krperry @. <mailto:@.> >; Mention @. <mailto:@.> >

Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Just to confirm, the autocomplete can be read via Narrator and navigated via the keyboard on Windows 11.

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[ogomez92]

Isn't this a separate issue?

El 23 jul 2022, a las 16:17, alpha2013 @.***> escribió:

Hi!

I think about people using a computer with poor resources, and in 

linux mode it can be possible to install a linux in console mode only.
Is this possible to use the sonic-pi audio server in daemon mode and interact with emacs?

Le 2022-07-21 à 06 h 51, krperry a écrit :

I understand my point was when he said to disable it that is not true that auto completion does not work in other cases. Mac should work and if we have to report to QT that they have a problem in accessibility we probably should. We need to write a small test app that imitates the intel sense and if it doesn’t work send it to QT as a bug report. That is the fastest way to get this kind of thing fixed.

From: ogomez92 @.> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 11:41 PM To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @.> Cc: krperry @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

I was talking about macOS the whole timke, like I said before, on Windows it works fine. sorry if there was any confusion.

On 7/20/22, krperry @. <mailto:@.> > wrote:

Have not tried windows 11 I use windows 10 till I get my new laptop.

From: Sam Aaron @. <mailto:@.> >

Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 12:54 PM

To: sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi @. <mailto:@.> >

Cc: krperry @. <mailto:@.> >; Mention @. <mailto:@.> >

Subject: Re: [sonic-pi-net/sonic-pi] How to make Sonic Pi more user-friendly for visually impaired / blind users? (#962)

Just to confirm, the autocomplete can be read via Narrator and navigated via the keyboard on Windows 11.

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