Plant clippers should be removed

[metalgearsloth]

IDK what it's supposed to do in ss13 but you can put produce into the seed extractor for seeds so having clippers is redundant. I think it'd be better to be consistent.

[Just-a-Unity-Dev]

You can't create seed extractors in Science (last I checked), so there will always be one and it's in botany

[metalgearsloth]

Just add seed extractor boards then?

[Cheackraze]

the botany genetics right now has a 'seedless' mutation that means the only way you can get more seeds of some plants is clipping them and hurting the plant in the process. besides clippers are good to keep for later too as funni surgery tool

[metalgearsloth]

Then why keep the seed extractor then.

[Cheackraze]

thats fair tbh its a bit woo woo bluespace magic to use it and makes getting seed stocks of your prize plants a bit trivial

[mirrorcult]

just remove seed extractors

[Just-a-Unity-Dev]

Then why keep the seed extractor then.

Because botany is stupid and harvest's before clipping

[Emisse]

why not both..?

[metalgearsloth]

The only argument I've heard for plant clippers existing is that there's seedless variants of plants which is more of a "gotcha" because there's no way to tell this ingame. ATM you could remove clippers and have identical gameplay as seedless variants don't offer anything meaningful.

[SpliTistiC]

this is literally a non issue tbh, seed extractors allow more seed production at the cost of losing one product per extraction, plant clippers deteriorate the health of the plant and give one seed or 'clone' but don't lose out on a lost product.

[metalgearsloth]

this is literally a non issue tbh, seed extractors allow more seed production at the cost of losing one product per extraction, plant clippers deteriorate the health of the plant and give one seed or 'clone' but don't lose out on a lost product.

It still sounds like one of those things that's a meaningless stat for stats sake, which botany has a lot of, when you could just change the yield instead.

[SpliTistiC]

in terms of what the issue is about, being plant clippers, I think they're fine just as they are- widely used, and they work well with the seed extractor for other scenarios, need more wheat seeds to plant more individual plants? Then use the seed extractor, need to replant an old plant before it dies but don't want to lose out on the yield? Then plant clipper.

[metalgearsloth]

You start with 5 wheat seeds which is enough to fill almost every tray, making the extractor redundant.

[SpliTistiC]

9 tray gaming, and losing all your seeds because the chef just grinded all the wheat at once has happened quite a few times, as it stands still, I don't think its worth removing em at all.

[metalgearsloth]

Plant 5 wheat seeds Clip immediately Plant another 5 Extract after first harvest and never bother with the extractor again.

[SpliTistiC]

the 2 tools are both niche in what they do, both are arguably better or worse, one gives more seeds the other doesn't lose any yield, if anything maybe they should be more different when it comes to mutations behavior

[mirrorcult]

seeds are oversupplied in general is the main thing. same with produce

[metalgearsloth]

Looking at https://github.com/space-wizards/space-station-14/pull/11972 I think the better approach is still remove plant clippers as having 2 separate upgrade paths for the same outcome (better plant clippers / better seed extractor) is kinda eh.

[Cheackraze]

why keep the magic bluespace machine instead of the real, actual tool that real botanists use

[Streaky-Haddock]

Plant Clippers have saved latejoin botanists when their department is trashed. They aren't a problem, and I don't know why they need messing with. They take seeds from a plant, but harm the plant. As opposed to seed extractor which removes yield to give an unreliable amount of seeds. There's a trade-off and they become more relevant now that mutations are a thing. Removing them would mean hydroponics can be more permanently screwed with, creates unnecessary reliance on cargo to do your job, and removes an experienced botanist's ability to compensate, improvise and plan.

Not just that, but seed extractors can be broken, stolen and cut off by power. There isn't a problem with seed extractors either. They're convenient and intuitive to use in of themselves.

I'm baffled why you think that it needs removing at all. Its presence is only a benefit.

In addition, Hydroponics oversupply isn't... a problem. It means you can manage resources, communicate with your chef and one really really nice thing you can do if you're drowning in unnecessary produce is supply Cargo, so you can trade for animals and stuff.

[metalgearsloth]

In addition, Hydroponics oversupply isn't... a problem.

The bug reports I have for pvs pop-in from literal thousands of botany produce begs to differ.

[Streaky-Haddock]

In addition, Hydroponics oversupply isn't... a problem.

The bug reports I have for pvs pop-in from literal thousands of botany produce begs to differ.

That... sounds like a fundamental problem with the design of hydroponics, not the plant clippers. Removing them wouldn't outright cripple Hydroponics, but it would make it easier to cripple through incompetance or intent.

[metalgearsloth]

IDK why a renewable console getting screwed is the end of the world when half the other departments rely on 1 console.

[Streaky-Haddock]

In addition, Hydroponics oversupply isn't... a problem.

The bug reports I have for pvs pop-in from literal thousands of botany produce begs to differ.

Idea: If the Smartfridge was fixed, could that be used to resolve this issue? In SS13 the Smartfridge is a structure used by chemistry and hydroponics to store chems, pills,bottles, seeds, food and produce and interacts with plant and chemistry bags.

I imagine PVS (whatever that is exactly) would still track them but... like, that would probably help more than removing the cutters.

Edit: and it matters because Hydroponics is a job that not many people play as it is, but is still important... and also gets a fair bit of grief.

Also... I think Plant Cutters are good with Kudzu.

It's not the end of the world, Sloth, i'm just... telling you why the tool matters.

[S1ss3l]

As a regular bota player, please hear me out : Instead of outright yeeting the seed extractor, how about making it a genetic analysis machine so we can actually do genetics in bota ? Plant clipper can be kept as is and some plant should be able to be turned into seed manually, like wheat, oats, poppy, pineapple, tomato, potato and so on (who fucking plant potato seed irl anyway ?). Having plant turned into their seed counterpart manually basically replace the need for seed extractor for most sensitive plant (like wheat), force bota player to take better care of their department (cause lets be honest, its a major snooze fest when you are not mass producing blunt right now). How about that ?

[Stealthbomber16]

The only argument I've heard for plant clippers existing is that there's seedless variants of plants which is more of a "gotcha" because there's no way to tell this ingame. ATM you could remove clippers and have identical gameplay as seedless variants don't offer anything meaningful.

The clipper allows botanists to continue regrowing plants consistently without issue and the extractor gives them room to continue planting even if they fuck it up or the clown removes all the plants to make room for full banana production. There isn't a reason to not have both of these. There is literally no reason to not have both of them.

I think a do-after on the plant clipper could be a nice idea if you want to balance it. But the clipper is the superior option over the extractor and the extractor is necessary to have.

[stranth]

Botany uses real life botanicals as a reference.

Clippers, will make a clone of the plant. Technically this is not a seed but is an actual cutting of the plant itself. The clone retains the damage value of the plant it was taken from and then damage is dealt to the plant in the process of taking a clipping, Im almost certain thats how it was explained to me. The reason a clone is so sought after in real life is that clones make it impossible for the plant you are growing from it to have any other mutations than the ones expressed currently in the host plant, regardless of its current mutations.

Mutations come from genetic shift over time after reproduction. A mutation shouldn't be expressed in it's host plant until the next generation, but a mutation can considerably affect the lifespan of the plant negatively or positively. Natural Selection happens when genes are copied, and affects which genes are selected for the next generation. A non-optimal combination of genes would result in a weak genetic lineage, which results in that lineage dying out eventually unless a stronger gene-stock was introduced through factors like pollination. Conversely an optimal combination of genes would thrive in its conditions making that plant and its descendants stronger, better and even different plants altogether.

So as a general,

• You shouldn't be able to get mutations through the clipping of a plant.
• Repeated clipping of a plant stock will absolutely mean that over time you have an unusable seed stock that provides heavily damaged plant.
• There are several chemical methods you can use to assist your plant, though sometimes even these fail to help your plant live long enough to be clipped again.
• Seeding provides a new seed that is nearly identical to the previous with slight variations that are of a standard deviation away from the parent plant.
• A plant shouldn't be able to be seeded unless it is pollinated by another plant, unless it has a trait that makes it a self-pollinator.
• Potency of a plant should affect the amount of a juiced product it produces.

Is this even an issue anymore though? Aside from the last two points most of this is how botany functions aside from pollination and juice content.