Remove machine upgrading

[EmoGarbage404]

Description

Based on a discord discussion.

Main points:

• numerical increases are fairly worthless and hard to make relevant to the station
• system has garbage integration with most machines and upgrades are worthless 99% of the time.
• it's a pain to implement and just adds a code burden.

The system as a whole is just pretty pointless. Upgrades are rarely meaningful outside of the ones strictly in science and the vertical progression of the part unlocks is just clunky as hell with research disciplines.

just remove all the tech and parts. Feel free to maybe also buff some of the machines. If you need something for salv just replace it with tech gizmos or something you can sell.

[deltanedas]

only bit i agree with is that implementation is horrible

back when matter bins werent nerfed, you could upgrade things and actually save stupid mats which made it worth getting good parts, maybe just make number go up again

[metalgearsloth]

only bit i agree with is that implementation is horrible

back when matter bins werent nerfed, you could upgrade things and actually save stupid mats which made it worth getting good parts, maybe just make number go up again

that's sorta the problem that only the lathe ones really matter and it's hard to integrate with anything else.

[EmoGarbage404]

does machine upgrading as whole offer any meaningful content outside of "make things in lathes cheaper"?

[Aisu9]

faster heating/cooking and reduce energy/biomass cost? i agree we should see meaningful progress like more choice on the chem dispenser and other thing

[EmoGarbage404]

faster heating/cooking and reduce energy/biomass cost? i agree we should see meaningful progress like more choice on the chem dispenser and other thing

biomass hasn't been relevant for months now and speed is pretty pointless when the scope of rounds is in hours. Meaningful progress can just be done with new items / machines in general which has the benefit of actually integrating with the research system as a whole. (adv mop, etc.)

[Aisu9]

i wonder why cloning is no longer relevant, can't a workaround be made to prevent "fuck it we clone"?

[deltanedas]

that's sorta the problem that only the lathe ones really matter and it's hard to integrate with anything else.

so remove everything else 5% less power usage on a 400W machine doesnt matter

[metalgearsloth]

Is there a ss13 server that integrates upgrades well?

[EmoGarbage404]

so remove everything else 5% less power usage on a 400W machine doesnt matter

then the discoverability and consistency becomes shitty as 90% of machines don't have any upgrades and whether or not a machine part does anything at all becomes a coin flip (funger reference).

[keronshb]

Is there a ss13 server that integrates upgrades well?

Maybe Eris? They've had some interesting concepts.

[Ilya246]

what's the point of removing it? how does it make the game better?

[deltanedas]

machine upgrading is awful to implement

[Carolyn3114]

what's the point of removing it? how does it make the game better?

ma bandaid fix!!

[mirrorcult]

removing things that arent good is okay

[UltimateJester]

Yeah I can't remember the last time it was worth wasting salvs and sciences time to come upgrade something

[Carolyn3114]

removing things that arent good is okay

could perfectly just rebalance how a lot of upgrades work

[metalgearsloth]

balancing isn't the problem

[Carolyn3114]

numerical increases are fairly worthless and hard to make relevant to the station

seems like it’s a major part in it

[Carolyn3114]

but oh well, half of the balancing here is just removing it

[LankLTE]

does machine upgrading as whole offer any meaningful content outside of "make things in lathes cheaper"?

upgrading anomaly containers is arguably better and upgrading artifact scanners is very good too. Those are the ones I’d be really bummed to see go since they can be a big part of Science’s workflow.

[Carolyn3114]

upgrading SMES’s for more backup power, pacmans for more power efficiency, thermomachines for faster mixing, cloners for more efficiency, rechargers for faster recharge time, anomaly containers, lathes..

[Carolyn3114]

Plenty of good uses, just could use some rebalancing if it’s “not good enough” instead of just removing stuff

[Aisu9]

upgrading SMES’s for more backup power, pacmans for more power efficiency, thermomachines for faster mixing, cloners for more efficiency, rechargers for faster recharge time, anomaly containers, lathes..

talking about the rechargers, know that the wall charger (that only charge weapons, not batteries) charge 5 whatever units faster than the desk one (from 20 to 25 base stats)

[metalgearsloth]

upgrading SMES’s for more backup power, pacmans for more power efficiency, thermomachines for faster mixing, cloners for more efficiency, rechargers for faster recharge time, anomaly containers, lathes..

Power is plentiful on stations between solars / AME / TEG / Singulo so there's no reason to ever engage with power upgrades, and trying to micromanage balancing between mappers and code is just going to be unmaintainable.

Any other upgrades are accomplished by what emo already mentioned here:

Meaningful progress can just be done with new items / machines in general which has the benefit of actually integrating with the research system as a whole. (adv mop, etc.)

It's not like "better lathe" is disappearing, just changing to something that will actually get used.

Plenty of good uses, just could use some rebalancing if it’s “not good enough” instead of just removing stuff

No one has been doing it hence why the issue is made.

it's a pain to implement and just adds a code burden.

[Carolyn3114]

I’m sure filling the entire gallery with a lot of “advanced (machine)” will solve the issue advanced autolathe.. advanced protolathe.. advanced security techfab… advanced medical tech fab… advanced…….

[CatMagic1]

I think machine upgrading is cool (like for the microwave or security charger or whatever else) I think the problem is balance. And if there's no reason to upgrade power THEN GIVE THEM BETTER UPGRADE TRAITS INSTEAD OF REMOVING A FEATURE THAT MULTIPLE PEOPLE ENJOY.

If it's poorly implemented then just improve the code like the based ss14 gamer you are 👍

[dvir001]

I agree with some of what you say but removing it will be a problem for many forks that run for longer rounds, and for more robust players that are fully using it, they are not in fact worthless 99% of the time.

The code burden is real, I wont even argue about it, but it will be best to rework it and not remove a working and none damaging (to other systems) system please.

[EmoGarbage404]

I think machine upgrading is cool (like for the microwave or security charger or whatever else) I think the problem is balance. And if there's no reason to upgrade power THEN GIVE THEM BETTER UPGRADE TRAITS INSTEAD OF REMOVING A FEATURE THAT MULTIPLE PEOPLE ENJOY.

If balance is so trivial, then just fix it yourself. And then also make sure that all future machines additionally implement upgrades in a meaningful way. And then make sure that the different components added to machine boards correspond to the machine in an easily understandable way.

...and even then, you still have a barely important feature that exists for little other than the personal betterment of science and nothing else with no incentive to improve anything for others.

THEN GIVE THEM BETTER UPGRADE TRAITS INSTEAD OF REMOVING A FEATURE THAT MULTIPLE PEOPLE ENJOY.

Tying in all caps doesn't make your point more meaningful it just makes you sound like a prick.

Machine upgrading is on a never-ending decline as it becomes less and less relevant outside of science boosting its own stuff and breaking balance.

[Ilya246]

i believe part upgrades are rarely used only because people forget that they exist and don't ask sci for them, for example thruster/gyro upgrades would be good for cargo yet cargo never asks for them, as well as medifab upgrades for med

[EmoGarbage404]

i believe part upgrades are rarely used only because people forget that they exist and don't ask sci for them, for example thruster/gyro upgrades would be good for cargo yet cargo never asks for them, as well as medifab upgrades for med

If people genuinely forget they exist, then what benefit do they offer? Janitors don't forget that advanced mops exist. Yet machine upgrades are still good despite being irrelevant to 90% of players because ???

The mechanic as a whole is just an uninteresting maintenance burden. Anything it does could be done easier and better by just adding a new machine board and some sprites.

[CatMagic1]

fair enough

guess I'll learn c#, been meaning to anyway

[Ilya246]

as for the burden on newly added machines, it's possible to just not add actual upgradeability to them (see: chemmaster, chem dispenser) if this is done, there is literally no reason to remove it, as i believe lathe upgrades are balanced if someone doesn't like the machine not being upgradeable, they can PR to fix the issue

[CatMagic1]

as for the burden on newly added machines, it's possible to just not add actual upgradeability to them (see: chemmaster, chem dispenser) if this is done, there is literally no reason to remove it, as i believe lathe upgrades are balanced if someone doesn't like the machine not being upgradeable, they can PR to fix the issue

chem upgradeability will probably improve when chems inevitably become finite

[Cheackraze]

The problem isn't the system, the problem is that machines were never nerfed after upgrading system became a thing. If machines were actually set to realistic values, upgrading everything would be much more worthwhile.

An actual finished implementation of the system should be attempted before its simply removed.

[metalgearsloth]

whoever is going to reduce the code maintenance and implement significantly more useful upgrades please make a draft PR.

[keronshb]

Citadel's SS13 server had upgrades from Tier 1 (base parts) - Tier 4 (Last Tier Parts)

Tier 1 machines & parts were dreadfully awful. Printing items from auto/proto-lathes could take upwards of 5+ seconds, and even extremely long times for the robotics machines. Tier 1 Batteries for typical devices like a baton or a disabler were actually fine.

Tier 2 and 3 parts were basically exclusively for hyper-minmaxing mining materials, since tier 2 and 3 parts gave miners more points & reclaimed more ore. Tier 2's mostly required just metal and glass & Tier 3's required silver/uranium. A typical strat was to rush Tier 3's, have a miner insert a few uranium pieces, get the Tier 3 upgrades, then they'd dump a few diamond/gold pieces then push out Tier 4's for maximum points & ore reclamation.

Tier 1-3 mechs were completely useless, especially with batteries.

Tier 4 was the only thing ever worthwhile and that had given everything maximum efficiency, reclamation, etc. The only thing to outbeat tier 4 parts were yellow slime cores (self recharging cells).

We introduced an interesting mechanic on the stun batons, where a higher tier cell = better stunning, but it was only a small bump in the road since tier 4s were usually out sub 10-15 minutes (especially if you had people who can optimize mining & science).

Eventually we wanted to replace both techwebs & upgrading with something more meaningful but Cit died after awhile so no one really put the effort in.

One idea was to reduce the amount of parts to just cells, bins and processors. Maybe lasers was in there too? And to reduce the tiers from 1-4 to 1-2 or even 1-3. Part of this was to also cut down on the over-reliance on mining & ores. A 5th tier was talked about from unlocking alien tech but that was honestly power creep talk.

Each part would still have their own niche - Cells - power consumption reduction Bins - storage/reclamation Processors - speed

But that's just the same system with less part overhead.

While new machines can be added as an upgrade instead, we then have to deal with potential changing sprites and such.

I do like the idea of upgrades adding more functionality, but not at the cost of removing functionality just to grant it back to the players.

Upgraded parts should exist to an extent for certain items. Sidegraded parts/equipment should also exist

Better cells? Good for borgs/mechs/energy weps/chem/APCs/etc Sidegrade cells? Maybe less capacity but they can self recharge.

But like most things, I wouldn't remove things unless they were completely unusable or had a replacement.

[deltanedas]

Cells - power consumption reduction

this is 100% useless since instead of getting a 50W saving on some random machine you could get a 5KW boost from a pacman if you are using that for some reason if you are using an actual engine then the 50W saving doesnt matter anyway

[keronshb]

Cells - power consumption reduction

this is 100% useless since instead of getting a 50W saving on some random machine you could get a 5KW boost from a pacman if you are using that for some reason if you are using an actual engine then the 50W saving doesnt matter anyway

My brother in christ I was talking about specific scenarios

• Energy guns
• Power limited based machines (Chem)
• Mechs
• Borgs
• etc

[deltanedas]

oh i thought you meant capacitors would they just be removed in a rework

[EmoGarbage404]

just to clarify: for this argument, cells are distinct from machine parts. Anything using power cells should just use the actual capacity of the cell to modify values, not the completely distinct machine part scaling system.

the only thing i'd maybe change about power cells is just making them all available roundstart and balancing with materials, but that's not here nor there.

[chromiumboy]

just to clarify: for this argument, cells are distinct from machine parts. Anything using power cells should just use the actual capacity of the cell to modify values, not the completely distinct machine part scaling system.

All the power values would have to be rebalanced first. Not an easy task...

[BasedUser]

here's a list of machines where upgrades matter right now:

• lathes
• ore processors (also technically a lathe)
• thrusters
• thermomachines
• the artifact analyzer
• rechargers, to some extent
• SMES

where upgrades could matter, but don't have a profound enough effect:

• [ ] cloner
• [ ] chemmaster (increased pill size?)
• [ ] PACMANs (get LESS efficient with upgrades, not more)
• [ ] powered machines (too little power draw compensation)
• [ ] substations
• [ ] microwaves
• [ ] hotplates
• [ ] the throngler biomass reclaimer
• [ ] emitters

where upgrades should matter (not necessarily due to SS13), but can't (due to not having an upgrade slot or etc, some are for the best):

• APCs
• vending machines
• conveyors
• the recycler
• gas miners
• TEG
• airlocks (animation speed)

tldr this is stale just fix the broken upgrades instead of having an unmaintainability skill issue
if i can read the part exchange code why can't you, the thruster system died before it p.s. i may be portraying this as funnies but there are none to be found; go add docs or whatever it is maints do when not coding something actually worthwhile like richtext

[deltanedas]

imo the bonuses for better parts on appliances are severely undertuned why bother hunting down a bluespace capacitor for a microwave upgrade when you can just build a second microwave for double the speed

[retequizzle]

i may be portraying this as funnies but there are none to be found; go add docs or whatever it is maints do when not coding something actually worthwhile like richtext

If you cannot disagree with things being merged/discussed on Github without taking swipes at people directly, please fuck off. Like you said, there is nothing funny to be found here and the attempt to be a smarmy cunt does nothing to alleviate your concerns.

[BasedUser]

re: retequizzle

I'm saying that if there isn't a coherent, planned out system that replaces machine upgrading (and none have been suggested here), don't bother removing machine upgrading because of a singular gripe. Albeit I didn't read the Discord discussion, so unless there indeed WAS a replacement system there, my point of this issue being stale stands.

[EmoGarbage404]

re: @BasedUser

this issue doesn't really have like the full plan labeled out so i'm just gonna start over with what is good and bad and whatever.

So yeah, there are definitely upgrades and progression that are beneficial for the round and players. Lathes, artifact/anomaly equipment, and power infrastructure are all good candidates for improvement. I've always been a big candidate for internal round progression, so of course i think it's good to be able to make better machines for various purposes.

My main gripe, which this issue isn't very pointed in explaining, is that our conventional SS13 version of machine upgrading is kind of a terrible way of implementing that. Combined with the completely overhauled research system (NO MORE TECHWEB!!!!1!!!) it kinda feels like two incompatible systems in combat with each other. And, as a result, machine upgrading gets shoveled into this super weird spot where it's not really posed to be an impactful mechanic.

So i'm gonna just go through all the shit that makes Machine Upgrading a bad progression mechanic.

---

Research integration

So at it's core, my biggest issue with machine upgrading is that it's a secondary progression mechanic that runs alongside tech disciplines while also being linked into them in the worst way possible.

The actual parts are shoveled in the experimental tree (at a thought, they should probably be in industrial?), but their application is for literally every discipline in the game. This partially contributes to experimental's dominance as a main discipline, since the machine parts exist as techs that are objectively good due to their incredibly wide application compared to literally anything else.

But this means that they are absolutely must-have's if you want to optimize your own or other departments. So in a way, it's basically a universal technology that must be shoved into some kind of discipline. This worked fine for the old techweb, but it runs pretty opposite to the intent of the new system, where rushing for the same unlock every round is not only wildly based on RNG but also defeating the purpose of variation between disciplines.

Consistency

This is a point i've also elaborated on before, but it's worth re-iterating. For a lot of applications, parts are just an item you use for assembling a given machine. They aren't special and adding upgrades is somehow annoying enough that it just never gets done. It's less about current ones breaking, and more about future ones just never appearing. And while this isn't a technical degradation of any given upgrade, as a whole, they become less and less uniform as new things just stop supporting them.

I suppose you could just require every machine with parts to have upgrades coded, but you can't really enforce it with a test due to the nature of it and honestly i think people would just stop using them at all. Plus there's the fact that a lot of things just can't have sane upgrades with levels of variation that don't directly compete with just making more of them. As deltanedas stated, an upgrade for a microwave needs to be minimum twice as fast to be better than simply building another one to accomplish the same thing at scale.

Utility

But even if you were to break down upgrades into only tier 1 and 4 (both ends of the extreme) I really don't see why getting a bunch of random machines to have upgrades is anything other than bloat. The reality is that a lot of equipment is just not that important to station function. If it's slow, people will just tolerate it and it being significantly faster doesn't matter all that much.

Even when things were made worse specifically to give room for upgrades, like reagent grinders, people just dealt with the changed values because number tweaks (which are basically the only thing this system can do sanely) are just not actually interesting enough to motivate players to engage with them beyond a spree of running around with an RPED. I am genuinely of the belief that, outside the few specific machines that people are regularly upgrading, there isn't a point to improving the vast majority of machines in the game (i mean, genuinely, who is the person upgrading the fat extractor)

---

And not to say that progression isn't important, but i just think all of these things could be made more useful, available, and easier to add via a different system, one that is in fact not formalized into any core thing.

My proposal is just to create new discrete machines that are simply improved versions of existing ones. Instead of upgrading an anomaly vessel, you unlock a new advanced anomaly vessel. Same for lathes and ore smelters and whatever else.

Research Integration

In terms of research integration, it's a lot simpler. Relevant upgrades are now not only visible to players through the research UI, but are actually obtained through a progression that is relevant to what that upgrade does. If you want upgraded lathes that use fewer materials, then just make an efficient lathe in the Industrial discipline, where it actually belongs.

Along with this, you can now super easily implement new sound effects, visuals, and mechanics in an interesting way. Sure, you could do it before (technically, not that anything actually does) but now it can be done through YAML. And if you really want the experience of running around and upgrading en masse, you could make a machine that simply upgrades existing machine boards into their higher-research counterparts (i imagine that's what a modified RPED would do)

Consistency

By freeing machine parts of any mechanical differences, they can just be a random filler piece for construction. Keeping things consistent isn't an issue because they no longer are struggling to operate on a shared format that doesn't benefit them. Upgrades can simply be their own things and be balanced on their own terms.

The majority of power-related upgrades can also be modeled simply with power cells and making the capacity of power cells (the only machine part with an additional use that integrates well with other mechanics) affect the capacity of the power infrastructure. This also means that they can just use construction for things like APCs which can't be modeled with existing machine construction.

Utility

Now that upgrades can simply be created when they are actually necessitated by a feature, it's not really a question of "is upgrading this worth it?" All upgrades are implicitly applied to be valuable through their existence as unique things.

---

I think that by migrating the way we do machine upgrades to this methodology, not only can we create more upgrades that players are more likely to use and have fun with, but we can also make them so much deeper and more relevant to the game. They can actually be found easily and contribute to science instead of being the weird niche that they are now.

Upgrading moves from a set of parts to an intrinsic goal of the department.

[DangerRevolution]

Is the implementation bad? Sure. Stats are arbitrary, and not widespread enough to have any significance. It's just something Sci decides to focus on some rounds and goes around focusing machines. Is the idea bad? No. This could add meaningful progression for machines,

• something for Sci to focus on (I would actually argue this should be something for Engineering to do, throw them some sort of bone but that's not relevant)
• Adds round progression.

re: @BasedUser

this issue doesn't really have like the full plan labeled out so i'm just gonna start over with what is good and bad and whatever.

So yeah, there are definitely upgrades and progression that are beneficial for the round and players. Lathes, artifact/anomaly equipment, and power infrastructure are all good candidates for improvement. I've always been a big candidate for internal round progression, so of course i think it's good to be able to make better machines for various purposes.

My main gripe, which this issue isn't very pointed in explaining, is that our conventional SS13 version of machine upgrading is kind of a terrible way of implementing that. Combined with the completely overhauled research system (NO MORE TECHWEB!!!!1!!!) it kinda feels like two incompatible systems in combat with each other. And, as a result, machine upgrading gets shoveled into this super weird spot where it's not really posed to be an impactful mechanic.

So i'm gonna just go through all the shit that makes Machine Upgrading a bad progression mechanic.

Research integration

So at it's core, my biggest issue with machine upgrading is that it's a secondary progression mechanic that runs alongside tech disciplines while also being linked into them in the worst way possible.

The actual parts are shoveled in the experimental tree (at a thought, they should probably be in industrial?), but their application is for literally every discipline in the game. This partially contributes to experimental's dominance as a main discipline, since the machine parts exist as techs that are objectively good due to their incredibly wide application compared to literally anything else.

But this means that they are absolutely must-have's if you want to optimize your own or other departments. So in a way, it's basically a universal technology that must be shoved into some kind of discipline. This worked fine for the old techweb, but it runs pretty opposite to the intent of the new system, where rushing for the same unlock every round is not only wildly based on RNG but also defeating the purpose of variation between disciplines.

Consistency

This is a point i've also elaborated on before, but it's worth re-iterating. For a lot of applications, parts are just an item you use for assembling a given machine. They aren't special and adding upgrades is somehow annoying enough that it just never gets done. It's less about current ones breaking, and more about future ones just never appearing. And while this isn't a technical degradation of any given upgrade, as a whole, they become less and less uniform as new things just stop supporting them.

I suppose you could just require every machine with parts to have upgrades coded, but you can't really enforce it with a test due to the nature of it and honestly i think people would just stop using them at all. Plus there's the fact that a lot of things just can't have sane upgrades with levels of variation that don't directly compete with just making more of them. As deltanedas stated, an upgrade for a microwave needs to be minimum twice as fast to be better than simply building another one to accomplish the same thing at scale.

Utility

But even if you were to break down upgrades into only tier 1 and 4 (both ends of the extreme) I really don't see why getting a bunch of random machines to have upgrades is anything other than bloat. The reality is that a lot of equipment is just not that important to station function. If it's slow, people will just tolerate it and it being significantly faster doesn't matter all that much.

Even when things were made worse specifically to give room for upgrades, like reagent grinders, people just dealt with the changed values because number tweaks (which are basically the only thing this system can do sanely) are just not actually interesting enough to motivate players to engage with them beyond a spree of running around with an RPED. I am genuinely of the belief that, outside the few specific machines that people are regularly upgrading, there isn't a point to improving the vast majority of machines in the game (i mean, genuinely, who is the person upgrading the fat extractor)

And not to say that progression isn't important, but i just think all of these things could be made more useful, available, and easier to add via a different system, one that is in fact not formalized into any core thing.

My proposal is just to create new discrete machines that are simply improved versions of existing ones. Instead of upgrading an anomaly vessel, you unlock a new advanced anomaly vessel. Same for lathes and ore smelters and whatever else.

Research Integration

In terms of research integration, it's a lot simpler. Relevant upgrades are now not only visible to players through the research UI, but are actually obtained through a progression that is relevant to what that upgrade does. If you want upgraded lathes that use fewer materials, then just make an efficient lathe in the Industrial discipline, where it actually belongs.

Along with this, you can now super easily implement new sound effects, visuals, and mechanics in an interesting way. Sure, you could do it before (technically, not that anything actually does) but now it can be done through YAML. And if you really want the experience of running around and upgrading en masse, you could make a machine that simply upgrades existing machine boards into their higher-research counterparts (i imagine that's what a modified RPED would do)

Consistency

By freeing machine parts of any mechanical differences, they can just be a random filler piece for construction. Keeping things consistent isn't an issue because they no longer are struggling to operate on a shared format that doesn't benefit them. Upgrades can simply be their own things and be balanced on their own terms.

The majority of power-related upgrades can also be modeled simply with power cells and making the capacity of power cells (the only machine part with an additional use that integrates well with other mechanics) affect the capacity of the power infrastructure. This also means that they can just use construction for things like APCs which can't be modeled with existing machine construction.

Utility

Now that upgrades can simply be created when they are actually necessitated by a feature, it's not really a question of "is upgrading this worth it?" All upgrades are implicitly applied to be valuable through their existence as unique things.

I think that by migrating the way we do machine upgrades to this methodology, not only can we create more upgrades that players are more likely to use and have fun with, but we can also make them so much deeper and more relevant to the game. They can actually be found easily and contribute to science instead of being the weird niche that they are now.

Upgrading moves from a set of parts to an intrinsic goal of the department.

I generally agree with this; there are issues but just ripping upgrades out instead of focusing on numerical changes is kind of counterproductive.

[EmoGarbage404]

there are issues but just ripping upgrades out instead of focusing on numerical changes is kind of counterproductive.

that's why i'm going to progressively replace upgrades with new machines until the only ones left are irrelevant enough to rip out. i don't plan on removing it all in one mega pr.

[Emisse]

maybe keep the (upgrade) but it just changes it into the new machine? with rped or something

[EmoGarbage404]

maybe keep the (upgrade) but it just changes it into the new machine? with rped or something

i would rather just integrate it into the rest of the research tree instead of RPED becoming a god of upgrades. I mentioned RPED just upgrading the boards if you have them unlocked so that might be a reasonable change if someone wants to do stuff in scale.