SAIL

[tokkeherfst]

Continuing this thread from vcv rack...

Wow Ben, SAIL is awesome! Just mapped modwheel CC output from one of my beatstep pro knobs and it works absolutely great ;-) The only downside I can see if the knob is already in a low CC value 'positition' going lower on a control that is set to a higher value doesn't work, but nevertheless they way you've implemented this works quite well!!!

You might just have saved me from a hardware eurorack addiction, because having a hardware knob to wiggle was my main reason for preferring hardware ;-)

Now I am just wondering how I might go about mapping a set of computer keyboard keys to a changable CV value so I can use my shuttlePRO as well for this. Or would you be able to add this into SAIL easily?

Another improvement that comes to mind is support for relative midi CC, which would be a way to fix the position issue. There are 3 relative modes supported on my Beatstep Pro endless encoders; I suspect other endless knob controllers implement something similar as well:

Absolute: turning the knobs sends everything from 0 to 127 relative #1: clockwise sends 51%, counter-clockwise sends 50% relative #2: clockwise sends 0%, counter-clockwise sends 100% (I don't know why it's in reverse) relative #3: clockwise sends 12%, counter-clockwise sends 13%

I can dump you the actual midi values if you would need them.

Tom.

[vcvrackideas]

you can just compare amount of gates to the amount of changes. odd

[stoermelder]

Same but noticed FUN thing - some modules (tested on faders of mindmeld and befaco slew, same behavior) needs a more voltage to switch the step than inc dec mode of sail can offers to it. Pretty strange. And that's why Pile into IN of Sail works - it's just ignore this limitation, don't know why.

Ok, this is strange indeed. Internally the voltage range 0-10V is mapped onto the parameters value range. So 10% in voltage change should result in 10% parameter change.

[stoermelder]

you can just compare amount of gates to the amount of changes. odd

Ah, this might be an "issue" I am aware of: If you use INC/DEC and go over 10V you have to trigger the same number of times to get within 0-10V again.

[vcvrackideas]

Ah, this might be an "issue" I am aware of: If you use INC/DEC and go over 10V you have to trigger the same number of times to get within 0-10V again.

Ok, thanks! inc\dec honestly it doesn't quite important to me, just a nice features to have. I'm looking forward on your answer about lock button implementation instead) and proper buttons working as well

[stoermelder]

• I've got some idea - can you implement LOCK toggle button in the SAIL? I mean a button that has ability to lock the last hovering parameter to midi controller and then release the mouse for traveling in different location without hovering function to operate parameters without keep connection with SAIL. In that way we could get two "controllers" at once and that would be super awesome if Rack can apply this hack.

This won't be that easy. SAIL depends on the fact that a module does exist if a parameter is currently hovered. This might sound trivial but is essential for its function. If you "lock" the parameter and delete the module afterwards there is no stable way SAIL could aquire the information that the module is gone. This is the reason why parameter mapping exists as used in MIDI-MAP or my modules like CV-MAP etc. This means a locked parameter would require parameter mapping.

I'm not sure if this function is too similar to µMAP. How would you push this "lock" button without leaving the hovered parameter in the first place?

[vcvrackideas]

I'm not sure if this function is too similar to µMAP. How would you push this "lock" button without leaving the hovered parameter in the first place?

mmmmm....midi mapping? But just ignore it if it so hard to do, it was an instant idea taking from some ableton's advanced script with lock button on midi controller that prevents controller from switching from focused device during floating around the rest of interface.

[stoermelder]

What might work without too much hassle... if you place a µMAP next to SAIL it could send the hovered parameter over automatically like an expander.

[vcvrackideas]

ok, will try to do that! and here is my visual report with fully worked settings and template. if you are curious what's inside the sail options - here is a strip file. No other type of connection and option of sail doesn't work properly with touchosc. Maybe it can help you in the future development of the module, who knows)

sail touchosc.zip

[vcvrackideas]

wow, trying now a bit more and realizing that slew thins brings a real analog feeling into controlling vcv rack, thanks again! really great for jamming or so

[tokkeherfst]

I agree, adding slew is really a nice touch, otherwise the feel is too steppy...

Tom.

[vcvrackideas]

Also Ben, is that possible to adapt somehow Remove's MOVE recording mode for using it with Sail without doing a mouse click? Now it works quite ok with TOUCH mode but I need to press and hold the mouse button to activate recording process and every mouse moving while holding can destroy automation a bit. This is not a problem for a slow ambient when user is in quite calm situation, but if he\she plays the techno...) Sorry for bothering you such things but SAIL has already opened so wide possibilities in my workflow)

[stoermelder]

You mean the click needed for start recording in REMOVE? How would you like to start recording then? You know you can use the REC-port for starting the recording?

[vcvrackideas]

You mean the click needed for start recording in REMOVE? How would you like to start recording then? You know you can use the REC-port for starting the recording?

I mean - first thing I click to the record button (I switched to the move mode before that), then I move mouse to desired knob and start to move knob via sail+controller. So if Remove react to the moving of mapping knob without mouse clicking - that's what I'd like to do. But if mouse clicking is mandatory to start the recording process - there is no way to do that otherwise than use TOUCH mode with clicking and holding the mouse and moving the controller then release mouse click to stop recording. I found it very handy by the way. However REC port is not so fast to configure as the method described above.

[stoermelder]

Hm ok, a mouse click is not mandatory to start recording and I could start on first change of the knob, but would I know when to stop?

[vcvrackideas]

Hm ok, a mouse click is not mandatory to start recording and I could start on first change of the knob, but would I know when to stop?

oh, sorry for confusing, it seems there are no ways to do that. (

[stoermelder]

I suspect this has something to do with the way the internal voltage of SAIL gets adapted by FINE?

Same but noticed FUN thing - some modules (tested on faders of mindmeld and befaco slew, same behavior) needs a more voltage to switch the step than inc dec mode of sail can offers to it. Pretty strange. And that's why Pile into IN of Sail works - it's just ignore this limitation, don't know why.

Should be fixed in 78c1ede0e220be9fe5788dcedd96815400e34e43.

[vcvrackideas]

Thanks, it seems to me inc dec now work fully ok! I've also noticed that with slew =0s in relative and absolute mode there are slighly bitcrushing artifacts when moving a knob in any sound module like we applied a little bit of bitcrusher modulation. It's gone when add slew a little bit more. I suppose there was a "smooth" option before and it was for removing such artifacts, is that right? or you just replaced it with slew parameter?

[stoermelder]

Thanks, it seems to me inc dec now work fully ok! I've also noticed that with slew =0s in relative and absolute mode there are slighly bitcrushing artifacts when moving a knob in any sound module like we applied a little bit of bitcrusher modulation. It's gone when add slew a little bit more. I suppose there was a "smooth" option before and it was for removing such artifacts, is that right? or you just replaced it with slew parameter?

Yes, you noticed right. I removed the "Smoothing" option as it caused too many problems with MIDI feedback if using the out-port. Also, VCV MIDI-CC has built in smoothing. Was the smoothing useful for you?