Closed DerDings closed 3 years ago
matkoniecz
commented
3 years ago The bicycle related wiki pages encourage tagging oneway=no on separately mapped cycleways along streets if they are usable in both directions.
Which one? Like usual oneway=no tagging this is useful only in areas where many of such highway=cycleway are oneway.
zzz Not an overwhelming percentage of elements have the same answer (No spam)
In which countries this is true?
DerDings
commented
3 years ago The bicycle related wiki pages encourage tagging oneway=no on separately mapped cycleways along streets if they are usable in both directions.
Which one? Like usual
oneway=notagging this is useful only in areas where many of suchhighway=cyclewayare oneway.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle and it's localized counterparts (the localizations are sometimes divided in some subpages)
zzz Not an overwhelming percentage of elements have the same answer (No spam)
In which countries this is true?
In my own experience, Germany and the Netherlands. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle#Cycle_tracks also at least in the UK, USA and Canada both kinds of cycleways are possible. I couldn't find information about any country where this is not true. However, in NL the difference between one-way and two-way cycleways is often visible on aerial imagery (because two-way cycleways often have lane markings and one-way cycleways are narrower), so the quest probably won't be shown there many times at all.
Two ideas:
- similar to the oneway quest. The user determines the direction. The answers are yes / no, only this direction / no, only that direction
- similar to the oneway_suspects quest. The direction is deduced by the side where the near road is found and metadata whether the country has left or right hand driving. The direction is displayed to the user for verification. The answers are yes / no
Thinking of possible cycleways in the middle of a road, we cannot derive the direction reliably. So the user will need to select the direction.
matkoniecz
commented
3 years ago both kinds of cycleways are possible
Both are possible in Poland but asking would be waste of time and add unneded tags, as such oneway cycleways are both rare and tagged already.
DerDings
commented
3 years ago Both are possible in Poland but asking would be waste of time and add unneded tags, as such oneway cycleways are both rare and tagged already.
So maybe Poland is a candidate to deactivate this quest. In Germany both kinds of ways are common (mostly they are combined foot and cycleways). There are more more dualway usable ways outside of cities and less inside, but there are also quite enough exceptions to legitimate a dedicated quest.
Note that this quest shouldn't only ask for cycleways, but also for footways with bicycles enabled. A lot of sidewalks are mapped separately as highways=footway. In my experience, a lot of people (probably pedestrians) simply add the bicycle=yes tag on those ways without thinking of the fact that (in Germany) all vehicles are required to drive on the right side of the street, thus all those ways are oneways unless otherwise stated.
As every country I know has a rule that requires vehicles to always drive on one specific side of the street, it is very likely this problem also affects a lot of other countries.
westnordost
commented
3 years ago That it is allowed is rare enough that adding oneway=yes may be considered spam.
However, what would be possible is to ask if a cycleway is a oneway or not after the width of the cycleway has been recorded.
Though since currently almost no cycleway at all has the width tagged, this could maybe be revisited in a few years or so. Not sure if I should close it then or leave it open as (much) later.
DerDings
commented
3 years ago When it comes to so much detail I can now speak for Germany only:
When local authorities consider whether to allow bidirectional cycling on a sidewalk (or street aligned combined foot/cycleways), the main things to consider are
That it is allowed is rare enough that adding
oneway=yesmay be considered spam.
It's true that it is rare in urban context.
On most streets there are a lot of crossings and driveways, strengthening points 1. At the same time, there are a possibilities to cross the road everywhere, weakening point 2. But for the same reason, those streets are often mapped using sidewalk=, cycleway:both=, sidewalk:right:bicycle=yes and similar schemes.
So most of them are not covered by this question.
Mapping of separate ways is more common with larger roads where there is some grass or a barrier between carriageway and foot/cycleways. There are fewer crossings and also less possibilities to cross, which also makes dual way more likely.
Thus, I don't think the answer oneway=yes will be too spammy. However, for this quest not only the amount of how often it is shown depends on a region's mapping style, also the variety of the answers depends.
However, what would be possible is to ask if a cycleway is a oneway or not after the width of the cycleway has been recorded.
I don't think this is a good idea. In more rural areas there are a lot of dual way enabled ways because of point 3. At the same time, those ways are often narrower than their urban counterparts. So the width is not a good indicator to determine whether those ways are one way.
westnordost
commented
3 years ago Okay, two things to do before this can be implemented then:
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oneway=* to every segregated cycleway.DerDings
commented
3 years ago Okay, two things to do before this can be implemented then:
- Have an answer for this question: To satisfy the quest guidelines, it would need to be easy for the user on-site to determine whether a cycleway is two-way or not. By which criteria should he decide that? Think of for example the standard cycle track that goes alongside a road in a town, will there be even any sign to denote that it is a oneway or is this supposed to be implicit because it goes alongside a road? In the absence of a sign, should yes or no be tagged? Or does it depend? On what does it depend?
Again Germany-only. Feedback regarding the situation in other countries is needed:
A way that is usable in both directions may be indicated by one or more of those signs:
I see this is getting more complicated than I thought at the beginning. To make it possible, this will maybe require an complex interface similar to the maxweight quest: A screen asking if any sign from point 2 - 4 is shown with yes and no buttons (or all the signs are buttons and there is a none of them button). Tapping no (or none of them) will then ask you if the signs from point 1 are placed at both ends of the way.
I still think this quest is valuable since the information asked for lacks in a lot of places, breaks routing when missing, and can only be added by survey. However, I understand that this quest may be too complex to be enabled by default, while the effort needed for research and programming may be too much for a quest a lot of users don't even enable.
- Ask around in the community (forum, wiki, mailing list) whether it'd be ok to add
oneway=*to every segregated cycleway.@matkoniecz already did in the wiki:
mnalis
commented
3 years ago Both are possible in Poland but asking would be waste of time and add unneeded tags, as such oneway cycleways are both rare and tagged already.
Lucky Poland! In Croatia, majority of cycleways are oneway (and narrow and shared with pedestrians). Which wouldn't be a problem if they added another cycleway for going back, but that unfortunately happens much more rarely. So in many cases, one can cycle to his destination using cycleway, but there is no legal way for cyclist to get back safely.
Although, they are in majority of cases marked clearly (either a pictogram with arrow indicating direction drawn on the cycleway, or a sign indicating segregated/combined footway facing the direction cyclist is coming from, or usually both).
westnordost
commented
3 years ago @mnalis Which I guess results in that that cycleway is de-facto used a two-way cycleway and/or on the way back, cyclists use the footway? I know I would.
Based on the answer at https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/2259#issuecomment-728874798 I will close this as will not fix: As @DerDings mentioned himself, it's not simple and easy to explain to the user for what signs or markings he or she should look. And additionally, point 2 of https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/2259#issuecomment-727204023 hasn't been done.
What's more useful that oneway is I think the width. If it is broad enough, it will and can be used two-way anyway, regardless of what the signs say.
mnalis
commented
3 years ago @westnordost that is correct, many cyclist ignore the markings or use the footway. Unfortunately that's quite common here, as there is severe lack of any planing in cycling infrastructure here, and nobody implementing it really cares, so you have cycleways going over high kerb (even when there is lowered kerb half a meter to the side!) or having a cycleway going straight through the bus stop shelter, or street lamp in the middle of the cycleway etc.
Still, it is required by law, and cyclists have occasionally been ticketed for this :(
Width would be most useful, though - once it gets picked up by OsmAnd / other mobile apps, of course.
General
Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: oneway Question asked: Is it allowed to cycle here in both directons? Rationale: In some places a lot of sidewalks or street-aligned cycleways are mapped seperately (this is not the place to discuss whether this approach makes sense in general). In some countries it is implicit that they are oneway if not explicitly signed to be not, while in the OSM data model oneway paths need to be explicitly marked as such. Aerial imagery mappers tend to not tag
oneway=*if they don't know if a way can be used in both directions. This is processed the same asoneway=noby routing engines, leading to faulty routes in many cases.Checklist
Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):
oneway=noon separately mapped cycleways along streets if they are usable in both directions.Ideas for implementation
Element selection: highway=footway/path + bicycle=yes/designated/official AND the way is parallel to a road. (Maybe the existing nearby sidewalk detection feature can be used?) AND NOT oneway= or oneway:bicycle=
Metadata needed: As default rules may vary by country, there may be a need to show a specific hint text for each country. Maybe first start enabling this quest in those countries where it is easiest to solve.
Proposed GUI:
Markers are shown at the end of the way.
Anwers:
Two ideas:
More answers: differs along the way (-> split up) Can't say (ask: leave a note instead? -> No, just hide / ok)