Ticket barriers and the barrier quest

peternewman commented 3 years ago

Use case Barrier quest for ticket barriers. From the wiki they should be tagged as turnstile: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dturnstile#Ticket_barriers

Even though they don't always turn: https://www.engadget.com/2019-12-02-tfl-apple-pay-express-transit.html

Proposed Solution Either another image which tags the same thing, or an other answers button.

westnordost commented 3 years ago

Is this a theoretical consideration or did you actually stumble upon this and didn't find the right value to select?

peternewman commented 3 years ago

It's raised from my real world experience with the new quest (first time I'd seen it): https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2690022#map=19/51.44220/-0.18760&layers=N

Until I looked at the wiki I wasn't able to validate that my non-rotary barrier should be tagged as a turnstile (I must admit I assumed there would be a special type for ticket barriers).

matkoniecz commented 3 years ago

Extracted photo from https://www.engadget.com/2019-12-02-tfl-apple-pay-express-transit.html :

screen03

Alternative photo: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-53220111

screen02

Is it actually considered as turnstile in general or is it OSM invention/hack to refer to them as turnstiles?

harry-wg commented 3 years ago

OSM does consider them to be turnstiles, which is a rather confusing and nasty bodge because they don't bear any resemblance to the recognised dictionary definition of a turnstile or the inituitive understanding of what a turnstile is.

Ask a hundred people to draw a turnstile, and I suspect not one of them would draw a TFL ticket gate unless they had previously read this thread.

Sadly though, that's all that's officially available at the moment -- until somebody has some elementary common sense and invents barrier=ticket_gate.

Some people do already use that, or a similar variant:

My preference is ticket_gate because for those with tickets its functionality is more that of a gate than a barrier and it also avoids the unnecessary tortology of barrier=ticket_barrier.

matkoniecz commented 3 years ago

So I would say that StreetComplete side "leave note" is the correct solution.

Though it would be likely useful to discuss a new value - though ticket_barrier is also unfortunate. What should be used for ticket barriers that are turnstiles then? Or is it intentional to be used also then? But likely it should be discussed elsewhere.

harry-wg commented 3 years ago

Personally I would suggest ticket_gate for all new station ticket gates because:

even at stations which implement the gate as as a sideways turnstile, its function is that of a ticket gate and its primary purpose is to check the ticket
barrier=turnstyle (even where the barrier is a turnstyle) doesn't positively imply that the turnstyle is a ticket gate.

matkoniecz commented 3 years ago

Either way it is tagging issue, that should be handled before StreetComplete will start using it.

I am putting it on my TODO list (especially as I implemented this quest), but feel free to start tagging discussion about it!

For now - just create note or tag it manually in Vespucci/other editor after returning home.

westnordost commented 3 years ago

I'd close this then. No need to keep open a ticket here for every issue/incompleteness in OSM tagging.

peternewman commented 3 years ago

Yes, apologies, re-reading the wiki I see it says (my emphasis):

Also used for tagging some doors/gates/barriers where you validate your ticket

There are also non-barrier yellow and pink Oyster readers which I guess are similar to ticket validators: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touch-pink-card-reader-when-changing-trains https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dticket_validator

matkoniecz commented 3 years ago

Posted to tagging mailing list - https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2021-June/061665.html

harry-wg commented 3 years ago

There are also non-barrier yellow and pink Oyster readers

... which are neither gates nor turnstiles :)

The yellow ones are at stations where there isn't room for a ticket gate. They're frequently seen at National Rail stations and London Overground.
The pink ones are for people to optionally scan to prove they travelled through an approved interchange avoiding a busy zone, and therefore qualify for a reduced fare.

Thus both of these would need to be mapped alongside a way, rather than being a node of that way. And ticket_validator would probably be an appropriate tag for them.

peternewman commented 2 years ago

@westnordost having been caught out by this again (or at least not remember the correct answer, despite this thread) and given @matkoniecz mailing list thread didn't get any replies at all, would you accept an additional image for the barrier quest which looks a lot more like an underground/subway gate, but tags the same (currently) correct turnstile tag (until something else is agreed on)?

Potentially one of these could be cropped down: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Mansion_House_tube_ticket_hall.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/TicketBarriers.jpg

matkoniecz commented 2 years ago

Maybe interpret lack of responses as an acceptance? I can also make a proposal and submit it to RFC (without ever going to vote)

streetcomplete / StreetComplete

Ticket barriers and the barrier quest #2934