New quest: Add ref and/or addr:flats for entrance=staircase

[deevroman]

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: ref entrance=staircase Question asked: What is the number of this staircase?

Staircase numbers are usually listed near the door, so they are easy to find:

Example


According to TagInfo's statistics, the ref has 64% entrance=staircase

Case example:

St. Petersburg in Russia:

https://osm.cupivan.ru/entrance/#452/?z=16&lat=59.94933187585085&lon=30.48688888549805 

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines:

• [x] 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
• [x] 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
• [x] 🐿️ Easily answerable by everyone from the outside but a survey is necessary
• [x] 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
• [x] 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)

Ideas for implementation

Element selection: entrance=staircase owned by building=apartments

Metadata needed:

Proposed UI:

[matkoniecz]

What would be tagged if it is unsigned or it has no assigned ref?

entrance=staircase owned by building=apartments

Probably also entrance=main on building=apartments outline.

[westnordost]

Well I can say that for the apartment building I live in, the entrance does not have ref.

[westnordost]

And I have never seen that, too. At least I did not notice it.

[rhhsm]

I'd welcome this quest: the entrance number (letter) is an important part of most Bulgarian apartment addresses, so you would need it to navigate to within a few metres of someone's apartment. A typical address would for instance be Vasil Levski street 45, entrance A, apartment 21, 1000 Sofia, where the apartment building at Vasil Levski 45 may be 100 m long, so you'd need to know the entrance letter to know that you should be looking at the first entrance next to no. 43. The quest could be asked for all entrances of apartment buildings that have more than one entrance node on their perimeter, incl. entrance=yes (but not amenity=parking_entrance). Apartment buildings with a single staircase do not have named entrances. For (rare) cases where an entrance is not a staircase with a letter, this could be an option in the "other answers" list. The quest could also change entrance=yes to entrance=staircase when the user enters a letter/number. For Bulgaria, the value should not be restricted to numbers, as letters in the order of the Cyrillic alphabet are used (А, Б, В, Г, Д, Е, ...). The quest could be off by default except in countries that use this address system.

[westnordost]

Can you also explain about the Russian (and bulgarian?) addressing system?

F.e. this node https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4799790368#map=19/59.95241/30.47455

Why does the next entrance have a completely different address? In the case of that node, what can actually be seen on the entrancE?

[rhhsm]

I'm not familiar with Russian addresses, but there are probably similarities with the Bulgarian one. The whole apartment building has one address with "house number" 32 к1, while each entrance has a number, while for each entrance the apartment numbers are also given. For apartment buildings in Bulgaria, 2 systems are in use. The most familiar is probably the one where each apartment building has a street and house number (it's actually attached to the parcel of land it stands on, so for a piece of land with 2 houses on it, both houses will have the same house number). If an apartment building has more than one staircase, each of them will have a letter, and apartment numbering starts from scratch for each entrance (so there will be an entrance A, apartment 1 and an entrance Б, apartment 1 in the same building). There's another one where street names are not used, and instead apartment buildings have a building (blok) number and a neighbourhood name (addr:place= is used). We used to live in apartment 82, entrance A, blok 474, Mladost 4, 1715 Sofia, where Mladost 4 is one of 4 neighbourhoods within Mladost quarter (115,000 inhabitants). The second one is tricky to use with SC, as the consensus is that the blok number goes into the house number field, preceded by бл. which SC doesn't like because it doesn't expect a house number that starts with letters. The neighbourhood name is also tricky to enter (see https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/2836#issuecomment-839425667 )

[andrewharvey]

I think we should just enable this for regions who opt in and not globally.

[matkoniecz]

In Poland it would be typically as follows:

building with a regular address https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/522102945

entrances with ref https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8365768620

But sometimes entrances have no codes and only flat address range is shown (addr:flats=69-92)

In really rare cases no sign at all is present or it is damaged.

In really rare cases each entrance has own address.

[westnordost]

I see, so the numbers at the entrances are the flat numbers

[matkoniecz]

I see, so the numbers at the entrances are the flat numbers

Not necessarily.

See https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8365768620 - entrance C, flat range 69-92 (addr:flats=69-92yes=C`).

Right now I am in flat that is in a staircase II. I also have seen "21 Foobar Street, staircase 3, flat 17" type of addresses.

[westnordost]

Okay... then can someone summarize how this quest could be implemented so that it confirms to the quest guidelines?

🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)

How to tag absense of "ref"? And if there is a "ref", what to tag actually? ref, addr:flats, addr:unit, addr:housenumber, something else? How is the user going to know if a number shown next to the entrance is a "ref", flat number, unit number etc?

💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)

How to avoid huge numbers of false-positives? I.e. entrances that do not have a ref?

[matkoniecz]

How to tag absense of "ref"?

Not sure ( https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/3064#issuecomment-879141371 ).

ref:unsigned ?

How is the user going to know if a number shown next to the entrance is a "ref", flat number, unit number etc?

In Poland it would be quite clear from context.

flat range is typically quite obvious (first of all it is range, ranges at different entrances form continuous stream - when one staircase has 1-20 range next will have 21-40 and the next 41-something).

In Poland housenumber would typically mention street, while staircase ref not.

[westnordost]

@matkoniecz so you suggest that if the user enters a range, it should be tagged with addr:flats, otherwise with ref?

[matkoniecz]

In Poland it would work. No promises about say Russia or Bulgaria.

[deevroman]

How to avoid huge numbers of false-positives? I.e. entrances that do not have a ref?

In Russia, if there are several stairs in a building, they almost always have ref. As suggested above, it makes sense to ask ref if there is more than one staircase in the building.

In Russia, the entrance number can easily be found near the front door on signs and distinguished from the apartment numbers.

Example 1


Example 2


Example 3


In Russia, you can't have two identical apartment numbers in one building. Therefore, it is not necessary to specify the entryway number to indicate the residential address. But even if the apartment numbers are somehow in order, in large buildings it is not clear which staircase leads to the right apartment.

And apartment numbers can go out of order:

Example 4


@matkoniecz so you suggest that if the user enters a range, it should be tagged with addr:flats, otherwise with ref?

For Russia, this is quite different. Perhaps a little confused rendering osm.org, which displays the numbers of apartments in the entrance, but not the number of the entrance.

About add:flats there was already a discussion #1862 Perhaps it is worth to return to it after that

But now we are talking about the tag ref, which is much easier to fill

[westnordost]

I would have thought that addr:unit would be the right way to "ref" an entrance. But anyway. To summarize:

In Russia, both ref and flats are always shown on every entrance In Poland, sometimes ref and sometimes flats are shown on every entrance

Correct?

[andrewharvey]

I would have thought that addr:unit would be the right way to "ref" an entrance. But anyway. To summarize:

No addr:unit would be the individual unit number, it sounds like this ref is the entrance number/letter which may lead to several units.

I reckon addr:flats should be a different quest because they are independent, you could have just ref, or just addr:flats or both.

[Helium314]

In Austria it's a bit similar. There are entrances for different staircases (part of the official address as Stiege), but addr:unit is used instead of ref for the entrance. It feels like the Russian/Polish way of tagging might be somewhat more correct, but in my understanding it's almost the same (with addr:unit being less specific).

[andrewharvey]

but addr:unit is used instead of ref for the entrance.

According to the wiki "The number, letter, or name of a single unit or flat that exists within a larger complex." so addr:unit should only be used on the entrance if the entrance leads to a single unit, otherwise it should be addr:flats for the unit numbers accessible via the entrance.

ref should be used when it's some other number/letter not related to the unit/flat numbers themselves.

[matkoniecz]

In Poland, sometimes ref and sometimes flats are shown on every entrance

Yes, and almost always at least one of that is shown for building=apartments with multiple entrance=staircase/entrance=main

Quite often both are shown, (very?) rarely none.

[westnordost]

Ok then let's consider we add this quest for Russia + a few selected regions first. Have a quest for ref or for addr:flats first? What can be surveyed more easily and which is the more important information? Would there be any more issues?

[matkoniecz]

Have a quest for ref or for addr:flats first? What can be surveyed more easily and which is the more important information?

I would say that in Poland ease of collecting and importance is very similar.

And quest would have minimal differences. I would even consider filling both in a single quest - info for both would be at exactly the same plaque, with the same query.

[trolleway]

I wait for easy survey tool for addr:flats and entrance ref for many years, it ideal usecase for StreetComplete in any ex-ussr city.

Ok then let's consider we add this quest for Russia + a few selected regions first. Have a quest for ref or for addr:flats first? What can be surveyed more easily and which is the more important information?

In real life, for delivery, or for emergency call, in Russia both number in use: street - housenumber - entrance - flat, so we need both quests at same time. If one quest need selected to implement first, addr:flats is more useful. Geomarketing studies using count of flats in building to estimate population for city blocks for optimal shops and city transport planing. Now we use proprietary reformagkh.ru dataset.

[deevroman]

Let me add. You will almost always find both ref and addr:flats. Seeing ref is usually easier because it is often written larger so you can see it from a distance. And the answer to the question will be a number or a letter.

The numbers in addr:flats are sometimes (usually found in older houses with complicated shapes) not in order (Example 4), so you have to think a bit about the interface of the quest. Also note that OSM has no way to tell which floors are which apartments. That is, we must give the user to enter, for example, addr:flats=3-7;10;14;16-18, but so that he did not start doing useless work entering the apartments, which are in series addr:flats=1-10;11-20;21-29;30-39.....

So it seems to me better to separate these quests.

Both quests are useful. But if you decide in what order to ask, first ask ref (faster to answer), and the next quest addr:flats

[rhhsm]

For Bulgaria, the ref quest should have priority, as the addr:flats one is not useful (flat numbering starts again for each entrance, so you definitely need the entrance ref to find the right apartment, and it's only of statistical interest to know which other flat numbers exist behind each entrance door). The quest should be asked for each building=apartment that has more than one entrance=yes or entrance=staircase node on its perimeter. The quest question could be "What reference does this entrance have?", where "reference" can be translated to what is appropriate for each country ("number" for Russia, "letter" for Bulgaria). I'm wondering if SC should also change an entrance=yes tag to entrance=staircase in case the quest is answered? Most apartment buildings here that have entrances tagged, seem to have entrance=yes that should be entrance=staircase

[andrewharvey]

I'm wondering if SC should also change an entrance=yes tag to entrance=staircase in case the quest is answered? Most apartment buildings here that have entrances tagged, seem to have entrance=yes that should be entrance=staircase

I think that should only be done if the user is asked is this entrance a staircase, would would need to be another quest. Though I'm not sure how that would work when you answer "no it's not a staircase it just a regular entrance" because entrance=yes was correct. Otherwise if it's just an entrance to a lobby area then it would be bad to blindly tag that as staircase.

[matkoniecz]

I'm wondering if SC should also change an entrance=yes tag to entrance=staircase in case the quest is answered? Most apartment buildings here that have entrances tagged, seem to have entrance=yes that should be entrance=staircase

It should not be asked for entrance=yes

[rhhsm]

It should not be asked for entrance=yes

I think that for an apartment building that has two or more entrance nodes on its perimeter that are tagged as entrance=yes, these entrances are very likely to be staircase entrances. There are many such cases in my area, and it would be a pity not to include them in the quest. If they happen to be other kinds of entrances, that should lead to choosing the "other answers" option and probably lead to creating a note. Alternatively, a "What kind of entrance is this?" quest could be created.

[andrewharvey]

Alternatively, a "What kind of entrance is this?" quest could be created.

2706

[matkoniecz]

Element selection: entrance=staircase owned by building=apartments

I think that more complex query is needed:

• entrance=staircase or main
• within building=apartments or residential line
• which has at least 2 entrance=staircase or entrance=main or entrance=* addr:flats=* or entrance=* ref=*

Why? There are apartment towers with exactly one entrance, asking there would be pointless.

See https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/233374385

[deevroman]

There are apartment towers with exactly one entrance, asking there would be pointless.

ref really doesn't need to ask. However, asking addr:flats is not so pointless.

[matkoniecz]

However, asking addr:flats is not so pointless.

Why?

Range will be typically not shown.

It does not matter for navigation, as everyone gets through the same entrance.

[deevroman]

Range will be typically not shown.

osm.org renders addr:flats

It does not matter for navigation, as everyone gets through the same entrance.

Indeed, addr:flats does not help in navigating for apartment towers. But addr:flats gives information about the building's population. Which, as @trolleway said, is useful for researchers.

[matkoniecz]

Range will be typically not shown.

I meant that it is often not shown on door / sign and not feasible to survey.

[deevroman]

it is often not shown on door / sign and not feasible to survey.

In multistory buildings, you need to know the floor you need to go up, so there are still signs near the entrance to buildings with one entrance. The only thing is that sometimes in such buildings these signs are located near the elevators, i.e. it is necessary to enter the building, which is often impossible.

[HolgerJeromin]

I know an appartement building with two entrances (each for about 10 appartements) and no numbers for visitors, only names on the bell buttons. If you visit someone you have to search for the name and if you are unlucky you have to walk to the other entrance.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/976655730

[deevroman]

As stated somewhere earlier, this quest is not offered for all countries. For example, in Russia they do not write the names of the owners on the public sign, so flats numbers are used. Read more

[matkoniecz]

I opened https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/marking-that-entrance-staircase-main-has-no-sign-with-code-in-area-where-it-is-to-be-expected/910 to confirm ref:signed=no

In which countries it would make sense? Russia, Bulgaria, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine so far.

---

In some other countries it may make sense to ask about addr:flats (though that would need addr:flats:signed=no ....)

[deevroman]

In which countries it would make sense?

ref + addr:flats is similarly used in Belarus and Ukraine.

Similar addressing is apparently in the Baltic countries: ref does not seem to be used, but addr:flats is used. But it's worth clarifying

[matkoniecz]

addr:flats is more commons - but for example in USA reportedly ref assigned to staircases is not a thing.

[deevroman]

entrance=staircase a more accurate tag in the proposed countries: The door to the entrance/front /stairs in an apartment building (auto translated) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Key:entrance

But in other countries it's just a staircase: Door to staircase https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:entrance

And this difference makes it possible to distinguish a non-residential staircase from the one that leads to apartments and which therefore will have ref addr:flats

[matkoniecz]

Question asked: What is the number of this staircase?

I propose more generic

What is the code of this entrance?

[matkoniecz]

An icon is definitely missing (@westnordost - are you interested in making one?)

---

I also need to redo interface: I based it on housenumber quest one, but ironically I need to add back functionality that I removed.

Right now it asks about entrance code and flat range, and allows to send question after filling either or both.

It likely should instead ask first what is known:

• entrance code
• flat range
• both entrance code and flat range
• neither

and then proceed to showing matching interface

current one (yes, the frankestein question is bad, likely I will go with "How this entrance is signed?")

---

I suspect that in Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovakia, Czech Republic would be eligible. Maybe also some other countries, but this are most likely and makes sense to ask their communities first.

If anyone wants to help: feel free to contact them and leave here a link.

https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/3064#issuecomment-880360125 suggests Austria but I am not sure.

[deevroman]

Do not forget that there may be several ranges of flats. You need something like a + button.

[Zverik]

[Helium314]

#3064 (comment) suggests Austria but I am not sure.

• in Austria ref is almost never used for such entrances, usually addr:unit is, so this would make tagging and probably element selection depend on country
• sometimes addr:unit is tagged on a node inside building (needs to be excluded)
• sometimes entrances are inside the building area instead of on the outline (e.g. in a building passage)
• there is only addr:unit, no addr:flats

So: also not sure if Austria should be included...

[matkoniecz]

@Zverik @deevroman Is it rare annoying case (and leaving note with photo would be OK)? Or a standard situation?

In Poland about 99.8% or more would be a single range, so "leave note for weird cases" would be acceptable. But maybe it is not going to work everywhere.

[Zverik]

This is an exception, common to Saint-Petersburg older houses. Of course most of the ranges are simple A-B. I'm not a StreetComplete user, but I dislike strict forms. So I posted the image to remind you of non-trivial cases. I agree that a note might work in such cases.

[deevroman]

Is it rare annoying case (and leaving note with photo would be OK)? Or a standard situation?

Multiple intervals have 1-5%

With multiple intervals

All

And among them there are often intervals from one flat (usually on the ground floor)

[rhhsm]

I also need to redo interface: I based it on housenumber quest one, but ironically I need to add back functionality that I removed.

Right now it asks about entrance code and flat range, and allows to send question after filling either or both.

It likely should instead ask first what is known:

* entrance code

* flat range

* both entrance code and flat range

* neither

and then proceed to showing matching interface

I suspect that in Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovakia, Czech Republic would be eligible. Maybe also some other countries, but this are most likely and makes sense to ask their communities first.

Bulgaria would be eligible. Here the entrance reference is always a letter, and apartments are numbered from 1 for each entrance (so in the same apartment block, there is likely to be a flat "entr. A ap. 1" and another flat "entr. Б ap. 1"; knowing just the flat number is not enough to be sure to find it). I don't like to call the entrance reference "code" as it might be confused with the passcode to open the entrance access door. Maybe call it "character" or "symbol"? For Bulgaria this could be translated as "буква". For Bulgaria it would make sense to only ask for the entrance letter; the flat range is not very interesting to map (knowing the total number of flats in each entrance is not useful to know when looking for an address).