New Quest: For which sport is this guidepost intended? (information=guidepost/route_marker)

[mcliquid]

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: The common and established tags for sports (like hiking, bicycle, ski, ... Question asked: For which sport is this guidepost intended? The goal is to determine the particular sport(s) for a guidepost or routemarker.

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

• [x] 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
• [x] 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
• [x] 🐿️ Easily answerable by any pedestrian from the outside but a survey is necessary
• [x] 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
• [x] 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)

Number of matched nodes in Austria: 14310 Number of matched nodes in Germany: 37408 Number of matched nodes in Switzerland: 7956 Number of matched nodes in United States: 10388

Overpass-Link: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1qhA

Ideas for implementation

Element selection:

nodes and 
["tourism"="information"] and
["information"="guidepost"] or ["information"="route_marker"] and
[!"hiking|bicycle|mtb|climbing|horse|nording_walking|ski|inline_skates|running"] and
[!"disused"][!"guidepost"]

There are certainly more sports to filter. Here are the ones that are known to me so far. Please comment if I've missed one!

Concerns:

• It often happens that there are several signs for different sports hanging on a pole. Since the ref=* is usually also different, I have preferred to enter the nodes separately. This would not be possible in the Quest. A multiple selection would then have to be stored using a semicolon.
• There are different ways to tag the sport. Either with "hiking=yes" or "guidepost=hiking" or "guidepost:hiking=yes". Based on an evaluation of taginfo, the first one in the list is the most used.
• There is no "no" answer. But from my point of view, each signpost has a specific sport (at least from my regional experience). If the user can not say it it definitely needs a "can't say" answer option if it is not answerable to the user.
• If there is no specific sport displayed on the guidepost, there is guidepost=simple in the wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aguidepost%3Dsimple

Proposed UI:

• Simple image selection or icon selection as in the recycling quest.
• You should be able to specify "This is a routemarker" as an alternative answer. This answer is more for experienced users, but it makes the usability easier and the effort is manageable.

I might even be able to implement it myself if the quest meets the criteria.

[matkoniecz]

To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose

is this data used or potentially useful?

[mcliquid]

is this data used or potentially useful?

It is displayed prominently on all (sport-based) OSM maps that I know or use personally, and significantly aids orientation when hiking. A few examples of the rendering:

VeloMap

Waymarked Trails: Cycling:

Wanderreitkarte:

Depending on the map, only certain signposts of sports are displayed. For example, in Waymarked Trails: Cycling, only bicycle=yes guideposts are displayed. hiking=yes are not shown. The same is happening with the official Garmin map I'm using (and they are using OpenStreetMap, too). On my Garmin (hiking) watch only hiking=yes guideposts are displayed. On my Garmin Edge (bike) navi only bicycle=yes are displayed.

[mcliquid]

You can compare these two areas and the guideposts around the "Sägenplatz": https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#?map=18.0/47.2172/9.6321 https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/#?map=18.0/47.2172/9.6321 And since there are no MTB signposts there (which also generally exists in Vorarlberg), nothing is displayed in the MTB-view at all: https://mtb.waymarkedtrails.org/#?map=18.0/47.2172/9.6321

[matkoniecz]

You can compare these two areas and the guideposts around the "Sägenplatz":

Is this info taken from extra tags on guidepost or is it taken from relation membership?

[mcliquid]

Is this info taken from extra tags on guidepost or is it taken from relation membership?

Since none of the guideposts in this specific map section belong to a relation, this information is exclusively provided by hiking=yes or bicycle=yes.

[eginhard]

This is a duplicate of #1412

[mcliquid]

This is a duplicate of #1412

Oh, thanks for linking. I have searched for "guidepost" but do not get to see this entry. As far as I can see, I have already addressed all the questions at that time, didn't I?

[mcliquid]

I'd be interested to know if there are any declining opinions on this quest here? If there is a chance that this quest will be accepted, I would try to implement it this weekend.

[mnalis]

Only thing I see as problematic for regular SC was mentioned in previous ticket:

However, I'd still close this as will not fix mainly because the average joe will not (always) be able to tell apart with certainty if a guidepost is meant for hikers, bicyclists or are generic ones (the ones you'd denote as city / diy).

Perhaps it would get in as disabled-by-default because of that reason; dunno.

However, I'm pretty sure that even if it ends up not being accepted here, StreetComplete Expert Edition fork would be interested in your PR, so the effort wouldn't be wasted.

[matkoniecz]

However, I'd still close this as will not fix mainly because the average joe will not (always) be able to tell apart with certainty if a guidepost is meant for hikers, bicyclists or are generic ones (the ones you'd denote as city / diy).

So the question is how to deal with things like

or

Is it solved or not?

[mcliquid]

Is it solved or not?

Regarding wiki it would be a simple guide_type=destination combined with a destination_sign relation as there are a lot of destination values in different directions. But we should probably also note that only a fraction of all guideposts existing in OSM are such "simple tourist signposts". Since there has probably been no need so far, it would also be reasonable to develop a clearly generic value for guidepost=* for this purpose with guidepost=generic or to capture the different generic types of guideposts. The following images are all kind of signposts with an "direction arrow", which so far (IMO) cannot be specified more precisely by tagging although they are partly completely different. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Accommodations,_sign,_Napf%C3%BCrd%C5%91_%C3%BAt,_2018_Mez%C5%91k%C3%B6vesd.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Direction_sign_at_CS.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brown_direction_sign,_Crawfordsburn_-_geograph.org.uk_-_3425854.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Street_signs_direction.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Football_parking_sign_with_an_arrow,_Oude_Pekela_(2019)_03.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ehnen_Signposts_R01.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Directional_road_sign_in_%C5%9Eanl%C4%B1urfa.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arrow_Entrance_Sign_Former_Grand_Union,_West_Miami_Florida.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Directional_road_sign_in_%C5%81%C3%B3d%C5%BA.jpg

because the average joe will not (always) be able to tell apart with certainty if a guidepost is meant for hikers, bicyclists or are generic ones

I can't speak for all the countries in the world, and I'm probably more versed on the subject. Nevertheless, I would claim that it is a minimum requirement of tourism institutions as well as the respective responsible district offices that a sign is made understandable for a all people of knowledge At least in Central Europe, these signs are designed to be as simple as possible and are almost always equipped with rudimentary pictograms. I would also argue that hiking and biking is done by just about any intellectual group. After all, it would completely miss the point if an "Average Joe" stood in front of such a sign and just thought to himself "Aha, what is this supposed to tell me now?".

I would go so far as to argue that if a person can answer whether the white pavement marking is a bicycle lane or a parking lane, then that person can also identify which sport a signpost is for.

[matkoniecz]

it would also be reasonable to develop a clearly generic value for guidepost=* for this purpose with guidepost=generic or to capture the different generic types of guideposts.

in such case such new tagging should be proposed outside StreetComplete ( https://community.openstreetmap.org/ ? tagging mailing list? proposal process? ) - and if not rejected then it can be used by StreetComplete.

[mcliquid]

Since all other signposts are obviously not sport-specific signposts, sport=no could simply be set. This is already an established tag and would convey the appropriate information. But as I said before, I don't expect much use here.

[westnordost]

sport=no is not in use and could be considered somewhat of a troll tag. (Like shop=no building=no etc)

[mcliquid]

and could be considered somewhat of a troll tag. (Like shop=no building=no etc)

According to this logic sidewalk=no and cycleway=no are troll tags too?

[westnordost]

No

On January 21, 2023 8:25:46 AM GMT+01:00, mcliquid @.***> wrote:

and could be considered somewhat of a troll tag. (Like shop=no building=no etc)

According to this logic sidewalk=no and cycleway=no are troll tags too?

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[gdabski]

I don't like the assumption that a guidepost is primarily meant for sports. To me, it's the inverse. A guidepost may be devoted to a specific sport, but the default is a generic guidepost that is suitable for anyone not familiar with the area (cf. guidepost is in tourist=*, not leisure=* namespace), be it a tourist or someone doing a sport for recreation.

[mcliquid]

The issue is closed anyway, so don't worry about that topic anymore😊

Nevertheless, guideposts are not in tourist, but in tourism namespace. There are countless examples where the namespace (from the beginning or over time) doesn't fit anymore. Besides that, is a bike tour or a hike not a tourist activity?

In my state there is a total of 9408 guideposts. Of these 9408 guideposts, exactly 89 have no type of sport tagged. The sport / access tags here are bicycle, hiking, winter_hiking, mtb or ski. And with these 89 guideposts I assume that they either belong to a sport or do not exist anymore. (Based on the respective location, I strongly suspect that it will be "hiking".) Of all 9408 signposts, exactly one is in a private garden and points in the directions "Italy" and "Costa Rica". For this purpose of "international orientation" (actually just for fun, as it is a private guidepost) there is (for me unfortunately) no tagging yet.