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streetcomplete / StreetComplete

Easy to use OpenStreetMap editor for Android
https://streetcomplete.app
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New quest: Organic products in trade? #553

Open ServusWorld opened 7 years ago

ServusWorld commented 7 years ago

Where it shows up

At all Objects where food is in trade. Well, …

(Maybe still more) … where the organic tag is missing.

What will be added

The organic tag will be filled with organic=no, organic=yes or organic=only

Form

form_organic

Other answers

When browsing through the values for the “organic” key on taginfo, I didn’t find any useful values apart from “yes”, “no” and “only”. So I don’t have any ideas for other answers.

Icon

Orange seems to be the color for all POI quests. This one would fit into that row. As symbol I’d suggest a leaf, I found an SVG here For this draft, I colored that icon green (same shade as on the money icon), flipped it and distorted it a bit:

icon_organic

westnordost commented 7 years ago

Needs research in which countries this is reasonable to ask. (I.e. in many countries, there is not even the concept of "organic").

Also, a problem I see with this quest in general is that it may be weird, even in a country like Austria, to be asked as a user for each and every Frittenbude, Kneipe, bakery etc. if it offers organic food. And, if they do, will they advertise it so prominently that you can see it from the outside? I can tell at least one place in my neighbourhood where it is not apparent from the outside that all their burgers are organic.

Also, speaking of organic burgers - what to tag if the burger meat is organic, but the rest (patty, salad etc) is not and/or unknown because not advertised?

rugk commented 7 years ago

And, if they do, will they advertise it so prominently that you can see it from the outside?

When they are clever, they do. :laughing:

CloCkWeRX commented 7 years ago

And, if they do, will they advertise it so prominently that you can see it from the outside?

I think that limitation assumes one kind of survey - walking around with phone in hand. I'd be really keen to explore a gentle fork of StreetComplete focused on "I'm sitting down/standing around in line inside of a business, what can I answer" for things like this, #104 #99 etc.

You could even call it... "EatComplete" :P

ServusWorld commented 7 years ago

@CloCkWeRX That's a good idea! Maybe such POI-specific quests shouldn't be shown on the map always, but only if you are very near (distance < 15m) to it so that it can be assumed you are inside.

Moreover, I don't think the organic OSM tag is so strict. According to the wiki's definition

organic=yes: The shop or restaurant usually offers some organic products. For example conventional supermarkets which offer a permanent product line of organic staple food fall under that category.

an organic burger meat would be enough to at least tag the POI it with yes

The geographic scope is still an issue, but research can be done here or here

rugk commented 7 years ago

First may be maybe discuss this in a new issue, as it get's off-topic from "organic quest" now…

IMHO a fork would not be nice, (don't wanna use two apps…) better improve this app. The best thing would be if https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/35 is solved and then such quests could be added as "disabled by default".

rugk commented 7 years ago

So I opened a new issue about that discussion to keep it out of other unrelated issues. It includes a summary of the current ideas. See https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/558

westnordost commented 7 years ago

So, my concern about spamming users with this question still remains. Also, I wouldn't know any major supermarket chain in Germany that does not have a range of Bio (organic) products, so I don't see that it makes sense to ask (as it also requires the surveyor to go inside, btw).

So, what I need for this quest:

  1. a reasonable choice of elements (and/or overpass query with a heuristic) where it makes sense to ask and where it is expected that you do not need to go inside. You enumerated all the tags that organic could be applied to. What is needed for StreetComplete is a subset of that list (see quest suggestion guideline in the wiki: No spam, Publicly accessible, Easy answer)
  2. and then, if such a sublist can be found, a list of countries where the legal concept of organic products exists to show this quest only in these countries

Then, this quest would be ready to be implemented.

kayD commented 5 years ago

At least in my town there are bakeries and butchers (both happen to be within a supermarket building) that offer really no organic food.

ENT8R commented 5 years ago

But if the majority of the stores still offers at least a small range of organic products (organic=yes) then this quest would be spam... 3 or 4 stores selling no organic products at all is still too less compared to a city with 100-300 stores.

matkoniecz commented 4 years ago

a reasonable choice of elements (and/or overpass query with a heuristic) where it makes sense to ask and where it is expected that you do not need to go inside. You enumerated all the tags that organic could be applied to. What is needed for StreetComplete is a subset of that list (see quest suggestion guideline in the wiki: No spam, Publicly accessible, Easy answer)

My feeling is nowdays nearly everything (at least in Poland) offers some "bio" products or pretends that their product are bio.

So the quest would be basically "is this place using popular types of marketing".

westnordost commented 4 years ago

So I think it makes sense to implement it for (small) shops that are not part of a chain. Shops that come to my mind are:

, maybe additionally with !brand.

Though, we still need a list of countries where the concept of organic food exists (with official labels) at all, so it can be limited to that. I added the help needed label, maybe someone would like to research that.

matkoniecz commented 4 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification lists all members of EU, UK, USA, Canada, Japan, India, China, Cambodia, Australia (self-governing by producers)

Countries where no misleading advertising is allowed (selling non-certified described as certified), making this quest viable

Japan - https://www.maff.go.jp/e/policies/standard/jas/index.html 'Organic JAS Applied to the agricultural products and processed foods which conform to the Organic JAS. Without Organic JAS logo, any products can’t be labelled as “organic”. "

trougnouf commented 3 years ago

a reasonable choice of elements (and/or overpass query with a heuristic) where it makes sense to ask and where it is expected that you do not need to go inside. You enumerated all the tags that organic could be applied to. What is needed for StreetComplete is a subset of that list (see quest suggestion guideline in the wiki: No spam, Publicly accessible, Easy answer)

My feeling is nowdays nearly everything (at least in Poland) offers some "bio" products or pretends that their product are bio.

So the quest would be basically "is this place using popular types of marketing".

Not at all the case in Belgium even though it adapts to all kinds of cultures. Most bakeries don't, restaurants typically don't and will make it easy to know from the outside menu, butcher shops are probably fairly mixed.

I think if the user feels spammed then they will disable the quest, but it's likely no less fulfilling than some basic quests like marking all neighboring houses as houses.

OpenGreenStreet commented 2 years ago

I would very much appreciate if the quest would be indicated in countries like Germany/European Union with clear legal regulations (see #4068)

matkoniecz commented 2 years ago

https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/553#issuecomment-688214714

Though, we still need a list of countries where the concept of organic food exists (with official labels) at all, so it can be limited to that. I added the help needed label, maybe someone would like to research that.

I created https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zYNGD_UQtSzZQ7W4jWDUdDlrx-RrFuzSvv1T9Z8w3Zc/edit?usp=sharing (editing to anyone with link, hopefully it will work and not will be overrun by spam edits)

Feel free to contribute research there! This is currently the main blocker once someone(TM) will do this I (or someone else) will implement this.

BTW, marking EU countries (second column) also may be helpful, as this template will be likely used again.

OpenGreenStreet commented 2 years ago

Does this help?

matkoniecz commented 2 years ago

It is mostly about countries outside EU, in EU situation is quite clear with EU standardisation.

OpenGreenStreet commented 2 years ago

Would it be possible to introduce the function immediately for all countries with clear legal regulations (for example, for the European Union)? Later then gradually for other countries.

matkoniecz commented 2 years ago

Not really - as it will take far more effort if request go one by one.

In addition truth is that I personally prefer on working on other quests that have more value and will be used more often than such disabled by default quest AND I a kind of suspicious of entire "organic" products branding.

So, I would be OK with implementing it, but I am not interested in spending lot of time on research is it supposed to be allowed in a given country or not.

And yes, for example in #4066 research where it should be enabled took about 30% of work - even in quest with tricky code and interface.

OpenGreenStreet commented 2 years ago

Thank you for your feedback. Of course, I find that very unfortunate, but can understand your arguments well.

mnalis commented 2 years ago

I think if the user feels spammed then they will disable the quest, but it's likely no less fulfilling than some basic quests like marking all neighboring houses as houses.

Also, I think the tag organic=* is problematic in itself, even in countries that require (by law) specific certification logo labeling (and are thus, at least in theory, less susceptible to false advertising).

For example, for organic=no, one would need to check each and every article in the shop to be convinced that none of them has organic certification logo (same problem is with organic=only, one would need to check that all articles have the certification logo).

That sounds like unreasonable amount of effort; so IMHO fails ":dollar: Valuable Surveyors" / ":chipmunk: Easy answer" StreetComplete guidelines.

For places with non-packed goods (e.g. amenity=restaurant, shop=bakery, most shop=greengrocer articles etc. - basically all but convenience shops/supermarkets) the situation is even more unverifiable, as such goods would not usually have certification logo stamped on themselves (at least I was never served a soup with certification sticker floating in it :smile:).

OpenGreenStreet commented 2 years ago

Sorry, yes that is understandable, but doesn't this apply equally to halal, kosher, vegan and vegetarian products?

matkoniecz commented 2 years ago

@mnalis Certified "organic" products (like regular carrots are not organic but mechanical...) are typically much more expensive and therefore accompanied by prominent advertisement. At least in Poland.

mnalis commented 2 years ago

@OpenGreenStreet For vegetarian / vegan it is about certain class of products which must not be present, which one can (I guess) easily see / taste. I'm not an expert on halal/kosher but I guess it is at least somewhat similar (forbidden mixing meat/daily in same meal, no alcohol etc).

E.g. if you order vegan food and found a piece of meat or fish or eggs in it, it would be quite clear that is was a scam, so you would not eat/pay, and business would lose. However, if you order a organic soup and it had a carrot in it, you cannot really say (much less prove) if that carrot is "organic" or not (it might even be GMO). Which makes it perfect target for unscrupulous business owners.

@matkoniecz Over here in Croatia most seating restaurants (excluding pizza joints) are hideously expensive in any case, so I guess they do no feel they have to explain themselves why - it is just industry standard :smile:. While I have not specifically investigated, I did not recall any explicitly announcing that it is due to them being "organic", although there are many who claim it is because they are "better / more healthy" for some reason or another: "vegan", "macrobiotic", "fresh/unprocessed ingredients" (like choosing live fish), "Paleolithic-diet", exotic (e.g. non-regional) menus/ingredients, etc. For shops it is usually supermarkets that have "healthy food corners" with expensive stuff (makes you ask yourself about food that is on 99% of the other shelves). For smaller shops you'd however have to look at items manually; some more expensive ones would be marked organic (if present). We do have one or two expensive brands of shops which are marketed as vegan-only+organic-only, though, but that is minuscule proportion of shops.

OpenGreenStreet commented 2 years ago

@mnails Thank you very much for your detailed answer.

From my point of view, in Germany it is much easier to decide whether there are organic products in a store or restaurant than to decide whether there are halal, kosher, vegan and vegetarian products.

In stores, the two seals can be found quickly and clearly:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bio-Siegel-EG-Öko-VO-Deutschland.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Organic-Logo.svg

In restaurants, I rely on the menu. Labeling a dish as organic when it is not would be breaking the law.

mnalis commented 2 years ago

In stores, the two seals can be found quickly and clearly:

That might be correct, but to answer this quest (at least for no and only answers) you would have to check all (or at least vast majority of) products the store offers. So if the store has thousands of articles, you'd likely have to spend several hours in the shop to give one of those answers (if not thrown out by shop owners before that). And you should answer yes (partly) answer only when you have ruled out no and only answers.

In restaurants, I rely on the menu. Labeling a dish as organic when it is not would be breaking the law.

I envy the countries where law is reliable indicator of reality (if they exist).

In my little part of EU, if something brings more money to business owner, the question that majority of them ask themselves is not Is it against the law? but How likely is it that I'll be caught and fined? - and if answer is the chance of being punished is practically nonexistent, I'll leave it to the reader to guess what the end result is.

Even in highly regulated (and with much smaller number of entities / thus much easier to control) automotive sector, we've seen that breaking the law (by e.g. cheating on emissions tests) will happen if that brings more profit to business, even in low-corruption (compared to Croatia at least) countries like Germany. Not to mention it is much easier (and much less prone to interpretation) to prove excessive car emissions that to prove whether that carrot was organic, and still it took a looong time and was quite a shock when it was found.

But I digress, the point I was trying to make is that I do not think that organic=yes/only represents reality in many cases, no matter what ad on the door says, and there is no way the surveyor can determine if that is correct or fake. Searching the web for "fake organic label" reinforces that belief.

TL;DR problems with this IMHO are:

HolgerJeromin commented 2 years ago

In Germany there are many shop chains which have organic in its name. Bio = organic There ist even a Wikipedia list for all chains

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Biosupermarktketten

No need to check all products...

mnalis commented 2 years ago

I was under impression that this quest (if implemented) would be skipped for chains anyway @HolgerJeromin.

Also, having "bio" or "eko" in name does not mean the shop is organic-certified (nor is it AFAIK required by EU laws to offer only - or even any - organic-certified products). In addition, there are hundreds of fake "organic" certificates anyway, and that continues to be big problem in EU and worldwide. I'd love if the tag were more useful to consumers in reality (and not just about advertising and increased profits), but it does not seem so to me... Still, it is just my opinion. Anyone is free (and in fact, encouraged!) to do some research and form their own opinion.

OpenGreenStreet commented 2 years ago

I am aware that there will always be misuse. If there is a certificate and a legal regulation, however, the probability of misuse is lower in my view.

As I said, it is more difficult for me to recognize halal, kosher, vegan and vegetarian products than organic products.

Thanks to @HolgerJeromin. for the link to the supplier list.