Closed Tex2002ans closed 2 months ago
While "🤷 Useful purpose" quest guideline might perhaps be debated for such micromapping (see e.g. this comment) (especially, as you note and I agree, there is growing trend of mapping those, so people seem to care for some reason), there are two important ambiguities which IMHO make it problematic from both "🐿️ Easy answer" SC mapper standpoint, and later for actual data consumers:
capacity=*
(i.e. "does it relate to whole swing-set, or to a single swing?")baby=yes
ambiguity in https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/3174#issuecomment-953347132 (I've now documented it at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:baby#Possible_issues)[...] (especially, as you note and I agree, there is growing trend of mapping those, so people seem to care for some reason) [...]
I was inspired by the "fire hydrant" quest too.
I only got started in OpenStreetMap ~2 weeks ago, (and someone mapped a single fire hydrant in my area years ago). I saw the quest, answered it, and thought:
Before, they were completely "invisible" to me.
Now, I go out of my way to map every single fire hydrant I see. (>100 mapped so far.)
Because of StreetComplete's quest... this lead me to map otherwise "invisible" objects. And now that I learned how to use the "Things" submenu, I then ventured into what OTHER types of missing objects I could map!
I visit a park, and now I mark all the:
A quest like this would potentially add Swings onto that list too! :)
Side Note: Swing nodes -> Swing areas can then potentially be mapped by someone who wanted to do the work when they get back to a more powerful editor.
While "🤷 Useful purpose" quest guideline might perhaps be debated for such micromapping (see e.g. this comment) [...] there are two important ambiguities which IMHO make it problematic from both "🐿️ Easy answer" SC mapper standpoint, and later for actual data consumers:
Hmmm... interesting. Thanks for the links/discussion. :)
I would personally say "6 swings total", then leave it up to baby accessible "yes".
Similar to bathrooms, you don't have to go down to the "# of wheelchair accessible stalls inside" or anything... all that really matters is that there IS at least 1 wheelchair accessible area inside.
In that case, a binary "0 vs. 1+" is much more important than an exact "1 vs. 2 vs. all" baby seats.
"I didn't KNOW you could even map FIRE HYDRANTS!"
I know the feeling; welcome to your new lifelong hobby :smile:
I absolutely agree with you with "let's make the best and most detailed map on the planet". It is just that the different concepts are better suited for different tasks. For example, in StreetComplete you use Places
/Things
Overlays to add new POIs to the map, but you cannot add any detail in them. And with Quests you add details to existing things. You can sometimes combine Overlay+Quests to add new POIs with details, but not always.
As you're new user, I'm going to recommend you another nice mobile app you maybe didn't know about: Every Door. It is kind of like Places
/Things
Overlay + all their Quests combined into one, but different UI avoids the problem with spamminess. It is tailored toward easy and efficient micro mapping of details. I think it might suit your "let's map everything with all details" enthusiasm!
Side Note: Swing nodes -> Swing areas can then potentially be mapped by someone who wanted to do the work when they get back to a more powerful editor.
Note that in StreetComplete, you can long-press on any position on the map and choose Create new note
.
Then you can describe the situation (and even leave pictures!) to let people (hopefully yourself too) do the more complex work in more powerful editor later. Only problem compared to direct editing is that it creates extra work which easily accumulates and becomes overwhelming if not enough people are solvng Notes, so don't overdo it (e.g. don't leave notes all the time instead of making changes yourself if you can make such a change in your mobile editor)
all that really matters is that there IS at least wheelchair accessible area inside.
If you are person in wheelchair, that is correct, you are primarily interested if there is at least some wheelchair access (although you'd of course prefer if it was fully accessible). And persons without mobility issues don't really care as it is accessible to them always, regardless if it is wheelchair-enabled or not.
baby=yes
is however different in one important way - sure, it is important for parents with babies to know if the small baby can safely use that swing, so there need to be at least some swings with baby baskets. However, contrary to wheelchair example above, it is also important for older children -- as they cannot use baby swings (they don't fit physically). So if playground has only baby swings -- those swings are unusable for older children.
Thus, while baby=no
is clear; baby=yes
is ambiguous -- it might mean that there are some baby swings but there are also regular swings, or it might mean that there are only baby swings available (i.e. there is not even one swing for older children to use).
(suggested tagging alternative of e.g. playground=swing
+ capacity=10
+ capacity:baby=2
is not only more detailed than baby=yes
, but more importantly it avoids that ambiguity completely, due to math: 10-2=8
, so older children can use swings in that example too)
This video may be relevant too:
On babies, he mentioned parents "wanting to take kids to a shady playground". And how the Phoenix weather is brutally hot, so this kind of micro-level info is helpful. :)
Or his wife "wanted to have a party in a park...":
(and he was able to figure that out using the OSM data! "No other tool has that!").
(Both examples were mentioned ~2 minutes into the video.)
And @ltog (the original baby swings user) might have some more input in the past 3 years too. :)
Side Notes:
Note that in StreetComplete, you can long-press on any position on the map and choose
Create new note
. Then you can describe the situation (and even leave pictures!) to let people (hopefully yourself too) do the more complex work in more powerful editor later.
Yes, that's pretty much what I've been doing. Any problems I spot, I make sure to update a day or two later back on Desktop.
(Wouldn't want to leave more work for others, I'd rather do it as complete as possible... in passes if needed, and while it was still fresh in my mind.) :)
And like I said in my previous comment... the StreetComplete quests alerted me to what was even possible, which let me map more efficiently on the Desktop as well.
For example...
Funny side note on Notes: As I was first using the app, I left 2 Notes for myself, but had no idea it would be completely public information.
(I accidentally put in a wrong street / house number and had no idea how to undo yet, so I left a Note for myself. Quickly corrected it a few days later on Desktop, but got an email from someone on my Note saying "the Note was left in the middle of the street!" So they weren't sure which house # I meant... lol.)
So... here's a potential enhancement too:
Thanks for tagging me. Not sure if I can add much to the discussion. My critique on capacity=...
in this context still stands. See https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/3174#issuecomment-954980780
Thanks for tagging me. Not sure if I can add much to the discussion. My critique on capacity=... in this context still stands. See https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/3174#issuecomment-954980780
Yeah... Although, nowadays we have different tags for other types of swings.
In particular, that thing looks more like playground=rope_swing
than playground=swing
to me, although it is likely somewhere in the middle... It is a specialty type, not something most people would recognize as a "regular" swing. So I wouldn't tag it as playground=swing
at all but differently (just like e.g. playground=basketswing
which has its own type - because it differs too much from "regular" swing).
Truth be told, I personally would also prefer something like playground=baby_swing
.
Using playground=swing
+baby=yes
+capacity=1
smells too much like a Trolltag -- "here a swing for you; haha just kidding you can't actually use it because you're 7yrs old".
But this if global tagging decision, so not well suited for StreetComplete issue tracker, so I've opened discussion for that at https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/tagging-baby-swings/112832 - feel free to give your opinion there
I've skimmed through the forum thread, my conclusion is that playground devices tagging is a fucking mess and I really don't want to burn my hands with that. I remember voting against the proposal because I was and still am of the opinion that the type of swing should be a subtag of playground=swing
as it is really somewhat open-ended. So, we now have the issue I predicted - baby swings not being in the original proposal and thus people becoming creative with how to fit this particular swing into the tagging schema without extending it. But, well.
As per the original proposal:
How baby swings should be tagged aside, 💤 asking if any swing is for babies or not would be spammy. Most are not specifically for babies. Also, as explained above, as per the approved proposal, playground=swing
is not meant to mean "a generic swing, could be any other more specific swing, too" but it is meant to mean "standard swing, nothing unusual", hence, you can't really ask whether this standard swing is in reality not a standard swing.
🚧 asking for the capacity of swings seems not that useful to me. First of all, who would plan their playground trip according to the capacity of some swings? More realistic would just be to look at the size of the playground as a whole to decide whether a playground looks interesting. (Also, the capacity can already be estimated by the size of the swing outline, if it is mapped as an area)
General
Affected tag(s) to be modified/added:
baby=yes
andcapacity=
on playground=swingQuestions asked:
I believe adding 2 more quests would be helpful:
baby=yes
capacity=
capacity=6
.According to taginfo, there are currently 40k
playground=swing
nodes/areas marked, but ~9k have any sort ofcapacity
added.The "# of swings" or "type" is something that is nearly impossible to tell using satellite footage only, and needs on-the-ground info.
Satellite image (from Bing):
On-the-Ground view:
Perfect use-case for StreetComplete users to go visit the parks and enhance! :)
Checklist
Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):
Ideas for implementation
I suspect "swing capacity" can be very similar to "bike parking capacity" quest.
You visit the spot, count up how many swings there are, and submit. :)
baby
swing questYes
/No
baby=yes
baby=no
capacity
quest:#
or leaves / swipes away to cancel.capacity=
whatever number the user typed in.Side Note: I see there was some Swing enhancement discussion back in 2021:
where it was "denied" as too niche until getting more usage:
In July 2023 though, 33 new additions to
playground
equipment were overwhelmingly accepted (51 yes, 0 no):So I believe these "micromapping" of specific playground equipment will go up... Especially if it becomes as easy as adding a Thing/"Bench"/"Fire Hydrant"/"Trash Can" like you currently can in StreetComplete.
Tie those Wiki photos with some sort of new "Playground" quest, and I think it'll help boost these objects into much more usage. :)
... And if StreetComplete users randomly see a "# of Swings" quest pop up, perhaps that might encourage them to properly add/tag more "Swing" nodes/areas too! :)