Quest request - what is the available opening around this bollard or block?

[Nick-Tallguy]

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: Question asked: Is there an example tag on item XY?

Adding maxwidth:physical= to instances of barrier=bollard and barrier=block

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

• [x] 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose.
  Bollards are frequently placed to prevent access by vehicles - but without an indication as to the available gap around a bollard, or between bollards, you cannot assess what can pass - wheelchair, cycle, pedestrian, or car?

  Wiki OpenStreetMap barrier=bollard

  TagInfo for barrier=bollard

  Taginfo shows over 735,000 are mapped, mainly as nodes, but some are as ways. The wiki indicates that maxwidth:physical should be used, but searches show there are few instances : Overpass Turbo search for large part of Europe

• [x] 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
  Once the tag maxwidth:physical with a value has been added, the quest should be shown as complete.

• [x] 🐿️ Easily answerable by any pedestrian from the outside but a survey is necessary
  The easiest method of obtaining the measurement is using StreetMeasure from within the StreetComplete app, but the quest could also be completed by someone willing to use a tape measure or similar.

• [x] 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
  There does not appear to be a standard distance between bollards, or between a bollard and another physical feature.

• [x] 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)
  735,000 items already tagged as barrier=bollard with very few having a maxwidth:physical tag as well.

Ideas for implementation

Element selection: Applies to bollards / blocks on paths, cycleways, & highways. Any ways / bollards that are tagged with either access = private, no, customers or agricultural should be ignored.

I suggest that, if this request for a quest is agreed, barrier=block is dealt with at the same time.

Metadata needed: I think this quest should be applied worldwide.

Proposed UI:

Almost identical to " What is the width of the opening here? " pull request #5713 - could use the same icon, and an almost identical form. The main change is the wording for the question, which will need agreement, and hopefully comment from others will help with this. My initial thought is;

"Think Wheelchair! - What is the width of the biggest gap you could pass through with a wheelchair whilst continuing on this path?"

A clarifying comment could be something like;

**"A wheelchair may not be able to negotiate;***

• a high kerb,
• anything with a steep sideways slope,
• boggy or marshy ground,
• or very rough ground.

When measuring the available gap choose the biggest gap allowing you to continue along the path, but avoiding these obstacles"

[westnordost]

There are some issues with this.

1. Definition

I feel maxwidth:physical on such barriers is quite ill-defined. I mentioned this earlier, which is why these barriers are currently excluded from the quest you contributed: Which width at a block barrier? - the one to the left, the one to the right? As opposed to a gate, which has clear limits, a small road (without kerbs) or path does not have such clear limits. Measure how much into the shrubbery to the side? And what if there are several bollards - measure the distance between every single one of them and specify the maximum?

Even when clearly defined, these uncertainties are quite hard to convey clearly and succinctly to the user.

So, first step would be to discuss this in the forums in order to enhance the Wiki documentation to be crystal clear how the tag should be defined in such situations. ... If it even can be defined that crystal clear, see my comments above. Only then we can continue here to see if we can find an unambiguous succinct wording that would be eligible for StreetComplete.

2. Usefulness

Bollards and blocks generally are for keeping out cars. I would expect that any bollards and blocks are placed in a distance that would do this job, i.e. make it possible to pass with wheelchairs, bicycles etc.. Do you actually expect surprises here? I.e. blocks and bollards having been placed so closely that they block wheelchair users or places so far apart to allow in cars after all? Got some examples?

[Nick-Tallguy]

1. I agree -

I'll work on getting this discussed to see if a definition can be arrived at.

2. Wheelchairs / dimensions

Using he word wheelchair may have been a mistake on my part. However, I have one example of a bollard 'gap' near to me which is too small for a wheelchair to pass, and there are several others in Europe.

Wheelchair Dimensions There doesn't seem to be a definition of the width of a wheelchair, with most sites having a variation on The dimensions will depend on the needs of the user and the type of wheelchair.

The OSM wiki does contain "https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair#Public_toilet with wheelchair=no - if doors are not at least 60cm wide, if there are steps, if there are narrow curves or other barriers"

Working with 60cm as the minimum gap required - this search using overpass turbo

/*
Searches the visible map area for bollards with a maxwidth:physical
dimension of less than 60cm
*/
[out:json][timeout:25];
// gather results
nwr["barrier"="bollard"]["maxwidth:physical"~"0.[0-5]"]({{bbox}});
// print results
out geom;

I've used this query on most of Europe, and found 9 examples, although I suggest that one of the hits in Germany is a mapping mistake by a new mapper in 2022. For the same area there are a total of 1084 instances of barrier=bollard with a maxwidth:physical value.

If the same search is used but changing maxwidth:physical to maxwidth and the dimensions changed to 40-60cm, there are 87 nodes - I've looked at several and many of them are 0.5m - some may be wrongly tagged.
Searching on bollard and maxwidth of 1 metre or more produces 2029 nodes.

Bollards with a width of 1m or more = 405 nodes.

My conclusion at the moment is that there are probably more bollards with the wrong tags, than there are correct ones, but there do appear to be some bollards that would prevent wheelchair access.

Other vehicle dimensions of interest to me;
family user using a mobility scooter 60cm wide,
friend with a disabled son using an electric wheelchair 72cm wide,
recumbent trike used by me and many others 83cm wide.

[Nick-Tallguy]

[Nick-Tallguy]

Community OpenStreetMap in Tagging General Discussion

[westnordost]

So, I recommend documenting the ~consensus reached in the discussion in the wiki (i.e. mention the case of specifying the largest usable gap.

Implementation-wise, your current quest can simply be expanded:

getTitle allows to return a different string depending on different tags. It would be nice if it wasn't necessary to add a hint text because the question is succinct enough.

How about:

What is the width of the biggest gap one can pass through here? (e.g. with wheelchair) Bollard

That's a pretty long question. Maybe the e.g. could be removed, as it is hinted at already with the icon...

[mnalis]

What is the width of the biggest gap one can pass through here?

Perhaps "What is the widest gap one can pass through here" is somewhat shorter?