sudasana / armcom2

Armoured Commander II
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General unit/mechanics suggestion megathread #23

Open YARDRL opened 4 years ago

YARDRL commented 4 years ago

So, I'll say that Armored Commander 2 is already a pretty good game as it currently stands. It is pretty unique both in the world of games in general and roguelikes in particular, and has an engaging set of mechanics already. Still, there is clearly a lot of room for improvement as well, and I would say that there are currently three main directions to achieve that.

Direction 1 is Historical Expansion. The process of adding on more WW2 campaigns + making the existing campaigns feel more historically authentic (both through unit composition changes and more specific scripted texts, events, etc.) While I think some campaigns are more important than others (i.e. implementing at least one North Africa and Soviet vs. Nazi campaign should be ahead of the Pacific front tank battles), this is basically self-explanatory on the whole.

Direction 2 is the Tactical Layer. The battles on that hexagonal map, and the associated mechanics. I think that currently the main issues are with the AI behavior. It's decent, but it still often raises questions, and the most important one is the way some units unpredictably flee, and the others stay on when it's pointless. This goes both for the random, unpredictable withdrawals of allied tanks that don't appear connected to the actual threat level (I had an ally withdraw while simply we were simply taking on an HMG team), and for the enemies, including the strange persistence of Trucks. Funniest example was probably when I encountered a Supplies-transporting Truck and a Pz. IV in the Canadian campaign recently: the Pz. IV fled immediately, but the truck stayed on for no reason.

I think that in general, the Withdrawal command should be removed outright; leaving combat (outside of Abandon Tank command) should only be achievable through moving to the respective edge of the screen, for both the player and the enemies. Allies that Withdraw will appear on the map as separate, uncontrollable units and start moving towards the screen's edge: enemies will be able to withdraw once they get to their edge of the screen. Trucks should be both more frequent, yet also stay on the battlefield much less often. Essentially, as soon as the player shows up, Trucks should begin moving towards their edge. Enemy vehicles that have little-to-no chance of actually damaging the player's tank (i.e. German motorcycle teams, or Polish MG-equipped armored cars) should do the same: perhaps not always, but more often than not.

To make this more interesting, terrain should play a greater role. Currently, each combat map appears to have all tiles of the same uniform green/white color until a unit actually gets there, and then it's determined whether that occupied tile is Open Ground or something more special. I think it's obvious that randomized generation of terrain across the entire combat map is more interesting. Most importantly, it would allow for the addition of roads (mostly dirt, with asphalt only present on the "road" tiles) running through the entire hexagon, with the Trucks in particular automatically generated only on top of these dirt road tiles, and being forced to flee from your tank based on whatever curve the road was generated with, as opposed to just taking the shortest straight line towards the edge of the screen every time.

The second area in need of improvement is the FP system. It's acceptable as it is right now, but it should become more gradual than the current calculation that's often all-or-nothing, bar the occasional Pinning. In particular, there's a frustrating asymmetry next to AP fire; whereas a critical hit with an AP shell basically guarantees penetration and instant destruction of the opponent, a critical MG/HE hit can still often leave "No effect," which is just frustrating. For Riflemen at least, I think a solution is to make the squads stronger by giving them more actions per turn by default: i.e. each Infantry squad will fire both Rifles (specifically in order to target anyone in open hatches, of course) and an AT rifle within their combat phase by default, and they'll lose that capability only after one or two good hits goes through. I suppose that for HMG/artillery, there should be a more explicit "stun" status that disables them from firing this turn or the next. As it is, it feels pretty random when they decide not to fire at you/your squad during some turns, and introducing such an effect will make it feel more tactical.

Lastly, certain tank models possess Radio Operators, and suffer from them being essentially useless. They can only Spot and give First Aid, and never have hatches to be effective at the former, so they only ever help if a spotting crewmember got unlucky enough to be wounded. I think it would be great if having a Radio Operator made coordination with the allied tanks possible; i.e. during the Crew Action phase, you would be able to know what they are planning to do next turn; you would find out if, say, their main gun broke down and they are going to withdraw, allowing the Commander to order them to stay, if needed. This would also address the moments when the allies just go quiet during some turns for what seem like random reasons.

Direction 3 is the Strategic Layer. Again, the current approach is often atmospheric (I really like the distinct feelings invoked by Spearhead and Counterattack missions in particular), but can be done better. During the "default" Advance missions in particular, it just doesn't really seem to matter how exactly you are advancing relative to your allies, so long as you just keep hitting the enemy tiles with every turn. The simplest addition is probably to provide a VP bonus for when you manage to cut off and encircle enemy tiles behind your advances, and to ensure that the "Target of Opportunity" tiles are never generated empty of opposition.

The most ambitious approach, though, is to have a much more dynamic frontline simulation. Basically, you will be shown the numerical strength of all the allied tiles on the frontline (and getting promoted may make that information more detailed), and based on that, you can (and should) plan as to whether that tile can deal with the enemies in front of them on their own, or whether they need you to clear away the opposition. Miscalculating this could mean that an enemy tile you behind as you chose to push forward, Spearhead-style, would suddenly send out troops to retake all the territory you had just captured, losing you those VP, (since by default, the captured tiles you just left would have strength of 1 at first, with more troops pulling in later in the day; similar calculations would apply to enemy advances in Counterattack missions.) Enemies retaking territory does automatically inform you of their strength on that tile (or at least, has a good chance to), and likewise, allied assaults failing to take over a tile can/will give you recon information.

I understand that implementing this is likely to be quite complex to say the least, but the pay-off will consist of much more engaging strategic gameplay turn-by-turn. Another way to do that could be to introduce limited fuel and MG ammo/smoke grenades to make resupplying more important (and to make it a distinct possibility that you have advanced too far, then and a sudden enemy counter-attack ends up striking either right where you are, or the tile directly behind you, cutting you off from Resupply until you manage to deal with them and get back to where the allied frontline is firmer.

Anyway, these are just my current thoughts on the game.

Edward-O commented 4 years ago

Close Combat - I feel like it's almost always disadvantageous for the player in the Patton campaign and all the early campaigns (Poland, Winter War), although you can get away with it in Battle for France(French). I haven't played British yet. Battle of France having an advantage seems okay, because they are infantry tanks after all and it's otherwise has more drawn out battles because of having no direct/fire due to gunner/commander being done by the same crewman. I think it's peculiar in that the enemy initating close combat is extremely rare, more often the risk is the player greedily choosing to do it. On one hand increased aggression could swing into making the infantry too dangerous, but it could be interesting - I think the tradeoff is making an infantry+truck battle more interesting is good, but also buffing them in a 2 infantry + 2 StuG or Infantry + Pak 37 battle would be overwhelming.

Allies - I kind of like allies being treated "blobber" style. They seem much more useful and accurate in Poland and Winter War than everywhere else, and in particular, the US and Canada ones are really bad. I think that it's down to -1: Allies hate shooting at long range 2: They absolutely refuse to attack forified infantry, even if a player tank could break the fortifications with a couple turns of HE. 3: If they have smoke rounds available they prefer it to other things - It can be nice if they are actually using it on a Jpazner 4, but when they smoke up most of the other enemies it feels like they help the enemy more than you. The

Pivot vs Turret rotation - only noticed this recently, and it's really interesting to play with but uncertain. IN some situations Pivot has less of a firing penalty than Turret rotation and in others it's higher? I know that ground state affects this (dry/wet/muddy/snow) but does the amount of rotation facings also affect this? It is used more by the enemy than the player, but I found that flanking some armored tanks with low caliber guns to work better with this to get acceptable accuracy on same turn I turned as opposed to moving with turret pre-rotated and firing on the movement turn.

Also want to confirm that reverse movement has a lower chance of success than forward.

sudasana commented 4 years ago

Just a quick note to say that I'm very appreciateive of these comments and am thinking them over; I already have a sketch plan for the next major update, and some of these points were already going to be addressed, but there's also a lot here that I hadn't thought about before. More later...

sudasana commented 4 years ago

Ok so some quick comments on what's been raised here so far:

1) Historical Expansion: Yes the long-term goal is to include every major tank campaign in the war, first finishing the Battle for France campaign, then the North African Campaigns, and so on. The German-Soviet campaigns are going to be very long and complex, but should absolutely be included, hopefully sooner rather than later.

2) The AI right now is very much a placeholder system. It's very random and and does not try to play very intelligently. On my to-do list is an overhaul of the system which should see enemies and allies at least act a little more realistically. But - an important thing to keep in mind is that the game is very abstract; you can imagine a lot of stuff going on in the battle that you don't necessarily see from your commander's hatch. So when an enemy tank takes off, one could imagine that there's a more urgent target in that direction.

3) I see the point about the Withdraw command, but right now even if the player keeps moving in one direction, enemy units won't be pushed off the map unless they themselves move off. Also, if there are enemy enemy units within 2 hexes, the command is not available, so the player already has to move to the "edge" of the map first in order to do it.

4) If you want to see a version of ArmCom2 with separate terrain for each hex on the Scenario map, see much earlier versions where I tried to make this system work. I ran into the difficulty that it wasn't possible to depict enough hexes on the screen to represent what a tank could see up to long range. It also looked confusing and it was easy to lose sight of what was important on the map. So I returned to this abstract but simple depiction. This is not to say that "road" terrain can't be part of this abstract system, and giving units the option of road/off-road movement is part of my plan for the future.

5) The FP system will eventually be improved to include more outcomes, such as injuries to unit members (gradually reducing their morale and effective firepower), routing them, etc.

6) The entire radio system is something I plan on adding in the future. If your radio is broken then your ability to call in support and resupply will be restricted. Tanks with an independent radio operator will have better coordination with allied units during scenarios.

7) Points well taken about the Campaign Day map - cutting off an enemy-held zone should greatly reduce its strength, and targets of opportunity should always be a little tougher, perhaps with a greater chance of spawning a rare unit, than usual. I do have a system planned where each zone has a set number of units in it, and the game can siliently move them around between player turns. It would be more realistic if I can get it working properly.

8) Limited fuel, mg ammo, smoke grenades are all planned for the future.

9) Close Combat right now is just a bare-bones placeholder. Eventually it will have an entire "mini-game" with its own display and menus.

10) Allied AI will be revised at the same time as the enemy AI. The calculations right now are very simple, and in the future they need to take more factors into account.

11) Turret rotation vs. Pivot: For these, only the worse of the two possible modifiers will be applied, so normally if you pivot the hull and rotate the turret, only the pivot modifier will apply because usually it's worse. For Point Fire (guns), pivoting is a flat -35% modifier; if the turret was rotated, if it has a fast turret traverse it's -10%, otherwise -20%. For Area Fire (machine guns) it's a little different, and the modifiers are applied as a proportion of the base chance to effect rather than being a flat modifier. As with most things, in the future these will change; faster tanks and tanks that can reverse one side rather than having to turn using the brakes only should have a lower penalty for pivoting. Also if you pivot 1, 2, or 3 hexsides should have at least a small effect on the total modifier. Finally, as you said, ground conditions can make pivoting slower as well, thus giving the Gunner less time to aim.

12) Movement: Correct, reverse movement is normally slower (fewer gears, and the driver has to watch for obstacles) so the chance of moving far enough to shift units on the scenario map is very low indeed.

sudasana commented 4 years ago

I've started addressing point 5 above in the newest development version: https://www.armouredcommander.com/blog/2020/04/04/development-build-4-april-2020/

Edward-O commented 4 years ago

My habit for testing different versions nowadays is 1 Run in a Poland Campaign and 1 Run in Patton's Best. I tend to use Vicker Type E / Panzer 38, and Patton A3 - Chosen for the speed and lower-medium armor. I find the game less interesting for tanks with high armor and to an extent the super high penenetration tanks as well although I like that playstyle is open and it can be cathartic every now and then.

I make sure to turn Commander Death ON and Fate Points OFF - My personal preference is to open the risk of things going short because things can start to feel like a "long haul" if it keeps going.

Winter War and Battle of France have their place of course, but in my experience, Winter War has a slow pace - it has only received enemy AT guns and aircraft recently, but still tends to have the problem where enemies stop using their mobility because the snow does as much a job immobilizing them as the player - France's calender makes it rain a LOT, which can cause a less extreme version of same thing , (although I do find it fun circling a StuG G in a tank that can ONLY kill it from the back due to the low caliber) I mainly avoid it because In my head I mentally treat it as the tutorial campaign because the low crew size means only having to take 3 actions per turn... and the commander/gunner being shared makes you innacruate for longer.

In Poland, I always pump machinegun skills first. For Patton I prefer to use HE on the infantry although the American bonus can be fun.

I tend not to use Recon at all with Sher A3/Pz 38/Vicker or better tanks although I use it a lot when using the weakest tanks in the game. I aim to cover as many Hills and Cities, with occasional Road speedboosts - I tend to rush to the 2nd or 3rd map on Battle and Advance even though it isn't incentivizes in them like in spearhead. I avoid forests to try to get more hexes of battle in. In Poland I will sometimes Re-supply If the squad gets low (although I might push on if there's only 3~ hexes left before the time runs out). In Patton's Best I usually don't - If I feel like the seed is giving me lots of Marders and Jagdpanthers I might, but I find the Patton Squadmates very annoying against enemy infantry, so getting down to 1 tank feels like it speeds the game up in some situations.

My most common to least common causes of death are Heavy Machine Gun > AT guns > Jagdpanzer 4 >Small Cars and Armed Trucks >Grenades > Aircraft >All other Tank Destroyers> Normal Enemy Tanks >Hull/Coax Machinegun

I will abandon a tank to end the day early if both weapon get a full jam (in patton I will start using recon if gun but not machinegun is jammed, in Poland I will play just as aggressively machinegun only as I do with a working gun). I used to also abandon a tank to end the day early if the Driver died, but the revamped change position helps with that.

I might clean this up, but it's how I'm doing (I gotta tweak my OBS settings before just showing streams of how I play)

sudasana commented 4 years ago

Thanks for this! Do you think the mobility effect of snow should be smaller than it is already? I would think that just Snow could have a minor effect, with the larger effect reserved for Heavy Snow.

sudasana commented 4 years ago

Also - what do you mean by "I find the Patton Squadmates very annoying against enemy infantry" - do they tend to choose the wrong types of attacks? Attack infantry too often?

Edward-O commented 4 years ago

Responding a little and then my 3.0 thoughts.

I thought snow was too annoying before but in retrospect it's probably because of a very aggressive playstyle. Patton Squadmates like their Smoke Rounds a little too much - I really don't like them using them on Infantry and Trucks - it is helpful if it slows down a Marder or Jagdpanzer with smoke (especially combined with the potential of the new line of sifght mechanics making it engage your squad and yourself on different turns), but against infantry it just draws out the battle (and Opel Blitz benefit flat out).

For 3,0 - I'm not really engaging with all of the new mechanics ? The main ones being the field hospital.

I still lose a decent amount of tanks every 3rd or 4th battle in a short campaign, Patton usually I don't finish but about every 6-7~ battle - but the base chance to bail a tank seems high even without Gymnast (although maybe I'm lucky?) I almost wonder if the Gymnast skill is needed at all (although it probably isn't normal to promote new people after crew death quite as quickly as I do)

I think the high end (10 knowledge) for certain job types (commander's direct fire and Loader's load) might be too much at present - I've managed to shoot the entire HE loadout of a Panzer 38 in a single turn of a single battle (to confirm that it was just a really high % and not infinite % of procing - I would stop after just a few hits with that caliber in normal play to get as much of a destroy% Fire resolve as I wanted while saving ammo for future fights) , and the commander's knowledge skill can improve THREE numbers - for direct fire itself, Fire spotter, and Gun/MG spotter - A high knowledge gunner also gets to increase his base gun skill and the strength of his bonus skills (the rain/sniper/moving skills) but they don't apply at all times so it's not usually as overpowering.

The need for spotting can kind of slow this stacked skill allocation from happening, but some tanks you don't need to split Perception (if the configuration lets a turreted Loader or Assistant driver do it) while in

I think it stands out the most in the Patton campaign (and especially if I used tanks stronger than the A3) because once you've crossed the Accuracy event horizon you can remove the most dangerous enemies almost at will - powering through the turret rotation penalty and removing the need to position except when my penetration calls for hitting them from the rear and side. (if I were the Canadian's Firefly or the HVAP Sherman this wouldn't be needed either). I am held back because of consciously using low penetration tanks so I do have to move to get behind people - but their is not really a special enemy type that has the player equivalent of "target tracker" so they still need to get luck on their pivot turn when I get up to them.

So even the A3 can feel too strong - Even though Spearhead gives the most points of the mission types - 160 VP days should require more elbow grease I feel.

Although it kind of takes away from the table based randomness of enemy generation, maybe the game could "scale" enemy strength upwards if you have very high VP days on previous days.

This stuff is of course partly biased because of the amount of time I put into playing the game of course - I know the game can be a lot meaner while you are still learning how it works - but I do think it a slightly higher difficulty could spice it up.

sudasana commented 4 years ago

Thanks for the comments - I'm made a few notes of things to fix in 4.0, but one thing that I've already fixed is that in 4.0 the Knowledge stat no longer modifies all skills, but instead increases the rate of exp gain for crewmen. Also, no more skill effect stacking, only the best applicable modifier for each crewman will apply to any one roll.

The difficulty level is going to be hard to get right, but I hope that the changes I'm making in 4.0 will help there. I've got a free Steam key for you too if you're interested. 😁